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hmmmmmm, well there'd be a much higher population count?
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Speculative History: What would history be like if-?
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Welcome to a new 'game' of sorts for the History forum: counter factual history discussion!
It's quite simple: every week or so I will post in this thread a 'what would history be like if' example, and kick off a chain reaction.
Eg what would history be like if the Battle of the Somme had been an Allied success as intended?
Example responses:
-the war would have been over quicker
-perhaps no WWII
-no division of Germany after WWII if WWII had not happened
And so on, and so on.
Links to the newest 'what would history be like if' discussion can be found in this post. Suggestions are also welcomed for it!
Let's start off easy:
13/07:
29/07: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...6&postcount=26
What would history be like if Edward VIII had not abdicated?
It's quite simple: every week or so I will post in this thread a 'what would history be like if' example, and kick off a chain reaction.
Eg what would history be like if the Battle of the Somme had been an Allied success as intended?
Example responses:
-the war would have been over quicker
-perhaps no WWII
-no division of Germany after WWII if WWII had not happened
And so on, and so on.
Links to the newest 'what would history be like if' discussion can be found in this post. Suggestions are also welcomed for it!
Let's start off easy:
13/07:
What would history be like if Hitler had not been born?
Links:29/07: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...6&postcount=26
What would history be like if Edward VIII had not abdicated?
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#2
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#4
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#5
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
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(Original post by iEthan)
Also have to think about things pre-war…. Would Germany have ever been in an economic state to go to war in the first place? I mean, the Weimar Republic etc. were dealing with poverty and unemployment on unprecedented scales, not to mention the state of their economy which arguably wouldn't have recovered without Hitler's administration. [/controversy]
Also have to think about things pre-war…. Would Germany have ever been in an economic state to go to war in the first place? I mean, the Weimar Republic etc. were dealing with poverty and unemployment on unprecedented scales, not to mention the state of their economy which arguably wouldn't have recovered without Hitler's administration. [/controversy]
(Original post by SuperHuman98)
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
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#7
(Original post by SuperHuman98)
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
Alternatively, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a world war still but instead against the Russians because they were public enemy no.1 to most people!
Spoiler:
Show
Because of my 'cut the head off, another takes it place' comment, I feel obliged to say Hail Hydra 
(Avengers fans will get meh)
(Avengers fans will get meh)
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#9
(Original post by Platopus)
Well, my GCSE history spec would have been very different for a start
Well, my GCSE history spec would have been very different for a start
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#10
I think regardless of whether Hitler was around or not there would have been a far-right movement lead by a facist due to the state the country was in (obviously less extreme/radical/monstrous as Hitler). WWII would most likely have been avoided but who knows?
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(Original post by Platopus)
Well, my GCSE history spec would have been very different for a start
Well, my GCSE history spec would have been very different for a start
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#12
Europe moved really, really far to the left after WWII. Mostly because Hitler made the right look bad and caused it to lose any moral mandate it once had. Not to mention the loss of wealth and infrastructure damage creating a more socialist spirit from the ashes. To Americans, Europeans seem frighteningly socialist and trusting of other countries. Especially with giving up their own currency and removing border checks.
I suspect that if Hitler had not risen to power, none of that would have happened. My predictions are as follows:
Germany might have remained a poor state with ineffective leaders. If it tried to rise up in this scenario, it would have gone very badly and European nations might have dealt with Germany very harshly... basically disband it as a country and give away the territory to surrounding states, permanently. No more Germany.
America might never have become a world power, or at least not as quickly as we did. It's possible the Monroe Doctrine would have become the status quo again. We were a very insular country before WWII.
The Soviet Union might have succeeded in quietly becoming the first superpower, though perhaps in less of a hurry due to the lack of World War II creating urgency.
Britain would have had the resources to continue the empire a little longer, and possibly maintain stronger ties with Canada and Australia. Not sure about India. Possibly, the Cold War wouldn't have started until the 1960s, and it would have been between the British Empire/Commonwealth and Russia rather than between America and Russia. The threat of Russian power as well as Imperial Japanese power might have kept the British Empire together longer, if there hadn't been a strong US military containing that threat and making it "safe" for the countries to go their separate ways.
Imperial Japan might have been allowed to take over China and Korea entirely, with no American military to stop them. It's not clear whether any European powers would have cared enough to intervene if a state of war with Japan didn't exist, as it never would have joined the now-nonexistent Axis. Thus, Japan might have taken China's place as a world power.
Most European countries would probably still be busy carving out pieces of Africa.
Technological progress might have been somewhat slower, as a lot of technologies were developed or funded during the war. Nuclear weapons might not have come into the picture until later.
That's all I can think off right off the bat.
I suspect that if Hitler had not risen to power, none of that would have happened. My predictions are as follows:
Germany might have remained a poor state with ineffective leaders. If it tried to rise up in this scenario, it would have gone very badly and European nations might have dealt with Germany very harshly... basically disband it as a country and give away the territory to surrounding states, permanently. No more Germany.
America might never have become a world power, or at least not as quickly as we did. It's possible the Monroe Doctrine would have become the status quo again. We were a very insular country before WWII.
The Soviet Union might have succeeded in quietly becoming the first superpower, though perhaps in less of a hurry due to the lack of World War II creating urgency.
Britain would have had the resources to continue the empire a little longer, and possibly maintain stronger ties with Canada and Australia. Not sure about India. Possibly, the Cold War wouldn't have started until the 1960s, and it would have been between the British Empire/Commonwealth and Russia rather than between America and Russia. The threat of Russian power as well as Imperial Japanese power might have kept the British Empire together longer, if there hadn't been a strong US military containing that threat and making it "safe" for the countries to go their separate ways.
Imperial Japan might have been allowed to take over China and Korea entirely, with no American military to stop them. It's not clear whether any European powers would have cared enough to intervene if a state of war with Japan didn't exist, as it never would have joined the now-nonexistent Axis. Thus, Japan might have taken China's place as a world power.
Most European countries would probably still be busy carving out pieces of Africa.
Technological progress might have been somewhat slower, as a lot of technologies were developed or funded during the war. Nuclear weapons might not have come into the picture until later.
That's all I can think off right off the bat.
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#13
(Original post by TommehBoi)
I think regardless of whether Hitler was around or not there would have been a far-right movement lead by a facist due to the state the country was in (obviously less extreme/radical/monstrous as Hitler). WWII would most likely have been avoided but who knows?
I think regardless of whether Hitler was around or not there would have been a far-right movement lead by a facist due to the state the country was in (obviously less extreme/radical/monstrous as Hitler). WWII would most likely have been avoided but who knows?
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#14
The absence of Hitler, let's begin with what he did. As it was solely based around him. He was the focal point for Germany. He amplified common public sentiments via mass organisation and rallies. He restored an imperialistic image of Germany and made it strong again. That being said he cut off a lot of his own party to aid his success by destroying the opposition so even if Hitler was not there a similar party would have existed but not as radical as the army knew that war was stupid, well war on the extent that Hitler had most certainly stupid. Germany would have been split between communism which was popular and growing and people like Hitler. Politics would have failed because it was designed to as there were no significant effects to save a nation in peril.
Thus war would have been inevitable. Weather it would be civil war, expansion war or world war was dependent on the level of division within the people.
Thus war would have been inevitable. Weather it would be civil war, expansion war or world war was dependent on the level of division within the people.
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#15
Without Hitler, German militarism would still have demanded retribution for Versaiiles, but under a different leader or leaders.
Von Brauchitsch came to power as head of a military junta in 1936 after a long period of turmoil in Weimar, not helped by annoying factions on the far right under the leadership of Gregor Strasser. Strasser was assassinated in 1935, perhaps at the orders of an experienced but disaffected fascist, Hermann Goering, who later became Minister for Food in the Von Brauchitsch government.
The Brauchitsch regime soon fell into difficulties. It tried an economic policy of no reparations, the western powers threw their toys out of the pram and invaded the Rhineland in 1937. The German army wasn't ready, so it fell back, discrediting his rule and causing a fresh wave of havoc and fighting in the streets. This time the far right triumphed with a new faction, the "German Workers Party" (Deutschesarbeitenpartei or DAP for short) coming to power in '38 under the leadership of Goering and his right hand man, Himmler.
The new DAP did a hasty deal with Mussolini, who partially rescued them financially and sent them weapons. They were able to re-occupy the Rhineland in 1940 and sued for terms with the Great Powers. Trade was set up and the US and others moved many companies into the new Germany which was getting better organised. Himmler established large labour camps which serviced the companies, creating many economies with forced labour which industrialists were happy to turn a blind eye to.
FDR lost the election in 44 to Lindbergh and a new "US-German Friendship Pact" ensured non-interference in German internal affairs and open markets to German goods. Himmler toured the US in '45, offering many new German consumer goods and also a chance for the US to export troublemakers, recidivists, criminals, homosexuals and black people to 'special treatment' facilities Himmler had established.
Soon the whole world was being organised under the new pact with a compliant China and Japan fitting in under threat of new German/US weapons systems. Germany invented the mobile phone in 1947, the atom bomb in 1949 and the laser in 1951.
Russia was annexed by Germany in 1953 as a huge new zone for labour camps. Britain became a German 'New Labour Zone' in 1956 and our grandparents and parents grew up as slave labourers for German/American combines.
Von Brauchitsch came to power as head of a military junta in 1936 after a long period of turmoil in Weimar, not helped by annoying factions on the far right under the leadership of Gregor Strasser. Strasser was assassinated in 1935, perhaps at the orders of an experienced but disaffected fascist, Hermann Goering, who later became Minister for Food in the Von Brauchitsch government.
The Brauchitsch regime soon fell into difficulties. It tried an economic policy of no reparations, the western powers threw their toys out of the pram and invaded the Rhineland in 1937. The German army wasn't ready, so it fell back, discrediting his rule and causing a fresh wave of havoc and fighting in the streets. This time the far right triumphed with a new faction, the "German Workers Party" (Deutschesarbeitenpartei or DAP for short) coming to power in '38 under the leadership of Goering and his right hand man, Himmler.
The new DAP did a hasty deal with Mussolini, who partially rescued them financially and sent them weapons. They were able to re-occupy the Rhineland in 1940 and sued for terms with the Great Powers. Trade was set up and the US and others moved many companies into the new Germany which was getting better organised. Himmler established large labour camps which serviced the companies, creating many economies with forced labour which industrialists were happy to turn a blind eye to.
FDR lost the election in 44 to Lindbergh and a new "US-German Friendship Pact" ensured non-interference in German internal affairs and open markets to German goods. Himmler toured the US in '45, offering many new German consumer goods and also a chance for the US to export troublemakers, recidivists, criminals, homosexuals and black people to 'special treatment' facilities Himmler had established.
Soon the whole world was being organised under the new pact with a compliant China and Japan fitting in under threat of new German/US weapons systems. Germany invented the mobile phone in 1947, the atom bomb in 1949 and the laser in 1951.
Russia was annexed by Germany in 1953 as a huge new zone for labour camps. Britain became a German 'New Labour Zone' in 1956 and our grandparents and parents grew up as slave labourers for German/American combines.
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#16
(Original post by SuperHuman98)
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
If Hitler had not been born then I think someone similar would come to power anyway using the lack of prosperity. Weather he would be evil or not i have no idea??
Or maybe Germany would be influenced by communisim, as there would be no hitler to suppress communist parties in germany
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#17
Also, I feel like WW2 would always have been an inevitable event, a world without WW2 just seems impossible. A big war had to happen in order to advance us ,and create a greater need for peace.
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#18
More unemployment. Limited german army, navy and air force for a longer period of time. No alliance between western powers and USSR. The USSR wouldn't of been able to gain a communist sphere of influence over eastern Europe if there was no WW2.
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#19
The Cold War would have probably happened sooner (no common enemy means no binding between Russia and the USA). The Cold War may have actually heated up and a legitimate war may have sparked between Russia and America, as a shorter, or no, WW2 would have left more weapons and soldiers at the superpowers' disposal, and politicians, not knowing the horrors of WW2, may have acted with less caution. So would that mean no Vietnam war?
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#20
I believe there's a good chance a major war would have happened regardless; however it'd have been Europe against the Stalin's USSR. The USA may have got involved too or it may have fought Japan in the Pacific/Asia & left the Europeans to it.
With no militarised Germany to deter the Soviets I doubt anything less than the combined might of all the European nations could hold the USSR at bay. They'd even have had some local support in nations like France & Germany there were Communist sympathisers. It wouldn't surprise me if the Soviets could have pushed all the way to the English Channel like Hitler did.
Without a lot of investment in their naval & air forces I doubt the Soviets would have been able to take on an invasion of the UK; their naval was pitifully weak & their air force large but outdated. Unless the USA entered the war on the side of the UK then I highly doubt the UK could launch an invasion to liberate Europe either though.
With no militarised Germany to deter the Soviets I doubt anything less than the combined might of all the European nations could hold the USSR at bay. They'd even have had some local support in nations like France & Germany there were Communist sympathisers. It wouldn't surprise me if the Soviets could have pushed all the way to the English Channel like Hitler did.
Without a lot of investment in their naval & air forces I doubt the Soviets would have been able to take on an invasion of the UK; their naval was pitifully weak & their air force large but outdated. Unless the USA entered the war on the side of the UK then I highly doubt the UK could launch an invasion to liberate Europe either though.
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