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Help! How do I improve my language skills?

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Reply 80
I must say passing such a language tests doesn't guarantee you to be fluent. I heard of many cases when people got good score in them but had to "live" at universities for at least 3 months in order to learn how to communicate efficiently in that language...
Reply 81
butterfly_girl_5
With regard to my last question- I meant that If I was 'at home' so to speak in everyday modern french/german, I would be able to distinguish language/phrasing was archaic/literary, and be able to assume, like in english, that most of the words I didnt know where words I wouldnt understand in english.
Hmm, not necessarily. If you're only at home in modern French / German, you might be able to spot archaisms / "literary" language to a certain extent, because you'll be less familiar with them, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to place them correctly.
I ask because from what I know of mml at cambridge, even if I was a native speaker I'd still find the course intellectually challenging. My problem at the moment is that I cant possibly read classic french or german literature (eg Böll) without reading a translation in conjunction. In this way, being fluent in every day language would help enormously (and of course once I mastered everyday language Id need to use books and newspapers to make any further progress)

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here, but how would brushing up on "everyday language" help you to understand Böll?:confused:
I'd say if your course is mainly literature-based, it's important for you to practise reading literary texts, even if you still find them a little tough to get through now. Don't use translations, try to figure the meaning of unfamiliar words or phrases out for yourself and only use a dictionary when you feel you absolutely have to. You're really supposed to be reading them in German / French, so if you keep mentally translating them back into English to figure out what they mean, you'll slow yourself down.

So basically, my advice is to read. Lots. It's great for vocabulary-building, and you'll get more used to reading and thinking about texts in French / German.
hobnob


Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here, but how would brushing up on "everyday language" help you to understand Böll?:confused:
I'd say if your course is mainly literature-based, it's important for you to practise reading literary texts, even if you still find them a little tough to get through now. Don't use translations, try to figure the meaning of unfamiliar words or phrases out for yourself and only use a dictionary when you feel you absolutely have to. You're really supposed to be reading them in German / French, so if you keep mentally translating them back into English to figure out what they mean, you'll slow yourself down.



thanks for the response. well in answer to the first question- simply because the more words & phrases I know, the easier it is to understand texts, and I could assume that the words I know were likely words I didnt know in english (although like you said- not necessarily).

My problem with the second part- I dont just find literature 'a little tough'- I find it impossible. Some texts like Maupassant are manageable provided I have an online translator on hand to look up the ten or so words a page I dont understand (that get in the way of general comprehension), but others like Böll, there are so many words I just cant read it- it takes and hour for 4 pages so lose the sense of the story, and certainly dont get a feel for it. I just really dont see how anyone could start an mml degree this october straight from school- Ive found A-level french and German really easy the whole two years and ive always got A-grades without trying, which makes me think its not me personally finding the level too difficult. My aim with literature is basically to be good enough to read a book without an online translator to hand, and understand enough not to have to look up words most of the time.
butterfly_girl_5

My problem with the second part- I dont just find literature 'a little tough'- I find it impossible. Some texts like Maupassant are manageable provided I have an online translator on hand to look up the ten or so words a page I dont understand (that get in the way of general comprehension), but others like Böll, there are so many words I just cant read it- it takes and hour for 4 pages so lose the sense of the story, and certainly dont get a feel for it. I just really dont see how anyone could start an mml degree this october straight from school- Ive found A-level french and German really easy the whole two years and ive always got A-grades without trying, which makes me think its not me personally finding the level too difficult. My aim with literature is basically to be good enough to read a book without an online translator to hand, and understand enough not to have to look up words most of the time.


I haven't read much classic literature in Spanish - I struggled my way through a chapter of Don Quijote but have mostly stuck to the more recent stuff. When I'm reading I don't sit with any kind of dictionary or translator next to me. I read a page, trying to pick out the words that I do know and make sense of what it's saying from those. If I still don't understand it, I read another page. If I'm completely not getting any of it, I'll write down the words or phrases I don't understand and then go and look them up. It's laborious but intensely worthwhile, and gives me the opportunity to try and puzzle out the language.

With regards to starting an MML degree straight from A levels - that's what I'll be doing. I'm a little concerned about my level of Spanish, but am reassured by the fact that they are only asking for an A, not any kind of extra qualification, time abroad or spectacular level of fluency. They don't expect us to be able to read literature without looking up any words or be fluent already, because A level simply does not prepare you for that.

Isn't the point of going to university to learn, not to prove that we know everything already? And doesn't the fact that you don't know everything already excite you? :smile:
Zoedotdot


Isn't the point of going to university to learn, not to prove that we know everything already? And doesn't the fact that you don't know everything already excite you? :smile:


thanks for the response

in answer- I hardly think any A-level student would know everything already after just 15 months of extra language learning and reading. I think even my parents who are educated professionals in their 60s would find an undergrad course at cambridge pretty hard (and my dad went to oxford in the 60s). basically, I would *ideally* like to be as fluent as a native speaker my age in both, because then I could really go into depth in studying languages with a semantic/philosophic slant and I could spend my time reading criticism from all 3 and really understand it, and Id be able to imrpove my quality of expression like I am in english (i still dont feel my english is adequate for writing satisfying essays). basically my impression of mml at cam is that sky's the limit so Im in no danger of taking the excitement out by knowing too much.

I think you must just have a lot more negative capability than me :p:
butterfly_girl_5
thanks for the response

in answer- I hardly think any A-level student would know everything already after just 15 months of extra language learning and reading. I think even my parents who are educated professionals in their 60s would find an undergrad course at cambridge pretty hard (and my dad went to oxford in the 60s). basically, I would *ideally* like to be as fluent as a native speaker my age in both, because then I could really go into depth in studying languages with a semantic/philosophic slant and I could spend my time reading criticism from all 3 and really understand it, and Id be able to imrpove my quality of expression like I am in english (i still dont feel my english is adequate for writing satisfying essays). basically my impression of mml at cam is that sky's the limit so Im in no danger of taking the excitement out by knowing too much.

I think you must just have a lot more negative capability than me :p:


Well that makes a lot of sense - from your other posts it's sounded like you're panicking about not knowing enough - I was trying to reassure you! I think we just derive excitement from different things. I'm really really excited about feeling myself get more and more confident in the language through study at the university, whereas you want the confidence in the language to study the things that you're excited by :smile: It's going to be fun (but hard, obviously)!

And of course, you have the advantage of being able to take a gap year - I can't afford that. What's the plan then? Living in France and Germany? I'm jealous!
Zoedotdot


And of course, you have the advantage of being able to take a gap year - I can't afford that. What's the plan then? Living in France and Germany? I'm jealous!


Im actually pretty screwed money-wise. I cant deal with uncertainty were exams are concerned- which is why im so keen to be ahead of the game at uni, but Im fine with going abroad on my own, completely unsure of what will happen (fear of anything else gets dwarfed by fear of failing exams, and 15months unplanned is a welcome alternative to 4 years of constant exam courses)

I have €1800 in the bank Ive saved up, which should get me started, but im going to have to find a job as soon as I get there and work at least 3 nights a week an both sat&sun. Im basically doing the same thing most gappers do (working to fund exciting projects) except im doing the two simultaneously so I spend all my time in the country- because in my experience its the only way to learn. So I cant exactly afford it, but I do have parents who could bale me out if need be (which they would only do as a loan with interest:frown: ) my only source of funding is that they'll be renting out my room (bc i live in oxford theres a lot of demand for this what with all the foreign students at language schools & chinese students sent to british private schools)

And It'll be 6 months in both then Ill go back to Germany if I need to

If your worried about expenses- you could always consider getting a seasonal job abroad during the summer aftr yr1- since the euros climbing rapidly atm (I dont know what it'll be like in 2009 mind you)
butterfly_girl_5
Im actually pretty screwed money-wise. I cant deal with uncertainty were exams are concerned- which is why im so keen to be ahead of the game at uni, but Im fine with going abroad on my own, completely unsure of what will happen (fear of anything else gets dwarfed by fear of failing exams, and 15months unplanned is a welcome alternative to 4 years of constant exam courses)

I have €1800 in the bank Ive saved up, which should get me started, but im going to have to find a job as soon as I get there and work at least 3 nights a week an both sat&sun. Im basically doing the same thing most gappers do (working to fund exciting projects) except im doing the two simultaneously so I spend all my time in the country- because in my experience its the only way to learn. So I cant exactly afford it, but I do have parents who could bale me out if need be (which they would only do as a loan with interest:frown: ) my only source of funding is that they'll be renting out my room (bc i live in oxford theres a lot of demand for this what with all the foreign students at language schools & chinese students sent to british private schools)

And It'll be 6 months in both then Ill go back to Germany if I need to

If your worried about expenses- you could always consider getting a seasonal job abroad during the summer aftr yr1- since the euros climbing rapidly atm (I dont know what it'll be like in 2009 mind you)


Oh, I seee. Sounds like an amazing experience anyway - I know a couple of people who are gapping and working at the same time and really enjoying it. I'm not confident enough to go to a country by myself without my language skills being good first: it seems like we're polar opposites in the respect :smile:

That last suggestion is an excellent one and something that I hadn't thought of before. I'm sure I could organise something like that :biggrin: Sounds great!
I'm currently learning Dutch, the problem that I have is that I have now forgotten pretty much all the french I knew and have a tendency to use Dutch words when speaking a little french .....hmmmmmph
Mrm.
I'm currently learning Dutch, the problem that I have is that I have now forgotten pretty much all the french I knew and have a tendency to use Dutch words when speaking a little french .....hmmmmmph

Ah, don't worry - it's perfectly normal. You haven't forgotten your French, you're just out of practice (and you go out of practice at incredible speeds when you're learning another language). If you start speaking French again it'll come back to you very quickly.
generalebriety
Ah, don't worry - it's perfectly normal. You haven't forgotten your French, you're just out of practice (and you go out of practice at incredible speeds when you're learning another language). If you start speaking French again it'll come back to you very quickly.


I do hope so. I am really out of practice with the french ...which can be a problem as my brother in law is french and speaks little/no English .... I haven't seen him or my sis for a few years and so only speak occasionally on the phone... maybe i will enroll on a course refresh it all a little..
Mrm.
I do hope so. I am really out of practice with the french ...which can be a problem as my brother in law is french and speaks little/no English .... I haven't seen him or my sis for a few years and so only speak occasionally on the phone... maybe i will enroll on a course refresh it all a little..


if it reassures you, after learning french for 5 years I went to germany for 6 weeks and after I came back I could barely speak french again for about 6-8 weeks but it all came back in due time and went back to how it was before.

the fact you cant speak french at the moment is just testement to how successfully youre immersing yourself in dutch-thats all
Reply 92
I don't know if you all know this already but what really helped me with my listening was french/spanish podcasts on itunes, they are all mostly free and I am subscribed to the TF1 20h news, it helped me so much :smile:
Reply 93
wow, i feel lonely, i only do one language... (german)... but speak 2 natively :biggrin:
how does one go about drilling the grammar into ones head? word order and stuff is logical and makes sense, but like adjective endings, cases, prepositions, just don't make sense. and im pretty sure spending 10 years with germans won't help, cause you'll just get the jist of what they're saying, and will lose out on accuracy...

on the accents front, i think, there is nothing better than to spend a week or so (depending on how quickly you learn) with a family in your respective language. cause that was definately the turning point for me. spent 7 days in germany, having learnt the language for less than 2 years, came back, and got a south german accent :biggrin:
and i can tell the difference between different parts of germany, and can even distinguish differences between austrians and swiss and germans!! :biggrin:
Reply 94
Lucky guy... :smile: But it also depends on your native languages I think (if one of them is Dutch, or something similar...)
unikq
wow, i feel lonely, i only do one language... (german)... but speak 2 natively :biggrin:
how does one go about drilling the grammar into ones head? word order and stuff is logical and makes sense, but like adjective endings, cases, prepositions, just don't make sense. and im pretty sure spending 10 years with germans won't help, cause you'll just get the jist of what they're saying, and will lose out on accuracy...
Only if all you're looking for is the gist of what they're saying. Perhaps you should identify your weaknesses, listen to Germans speaking and mimic them. By the way, adjective endings, cases and prepositions make perfect sense - if you think they don't, you either haven't been taught well enough or you haven't learnt them well enough. Here's my page on adjective endings.
Reply 96
generalebriety
Only if all you're looking for is the gist of what they're saying. Perhaps you should identify your weaknesses, listen to Germans speaking and mimic them. By the way, adjective endings, cases and prepositions make perfect sense - if you think they don't, you either haven't been taught well enough or you haven't learnt them well enough. Here's my page on adjective endings.


i know what they're saying and everything, but im saying, i don't think listening to them for ages helps grammar. i was always taught in a mixed ability class, until my sixth form, in which, for the first year, consisted of people, well, to put it lightly, didn't suit german, so i've always been held back at the details. and now grammar just seems to me like maths h/w... it makes sense and everything, but i just can't grasp it in "real life situations", and i end up making up my own, and then messing up the most basics like saying der mutter lol
unikq
i know what they're saying and everything, but im saying, i don't think listening to them for ages helps grammar. i was always taught in a mixed ability class, until my sixth form, in which, for the first year, consisted of people, well, to put it lightly, didn't suit german, so i've always been held back at the details. and now grammar just seems to me like maths h/w... it makes sense and everything, but i just can't grasp it in "real life situations", and i end up making up my own, and then messing up the most basics like saying der mutter lol

No, you missed my point. Think of adjective endings. Then spend a while listening to Germans, looking out for their adjective endings, and try to mimic them. (Alternatively, just read my page in my previous post.)
Reply 98
unikq
now grammar just seems to me like maths h/w... it makes sense and everything, but i just can't grasp it in "real life situations", and i end up making up my own, and then messing up the most basics like saying der mutter lol

You might be a bit like me - I can learn it academically for all the rice in China, but I need to see it, hear it and use it. I learnt most of my french grammar by reading a lot of books - it's great to understand the rules, and I do find them easy to learn, but in order for them to make the journey to instinctive memory, there's no shortcut for me.

It did pay off though, I got much better marks in grammar tests than my classmates at uni, because they'd be sitting there trying to remember and apply what they'd learnt, and I'd just put down the only thing that "felt" right... or "looked right" in the case of multiple choice :cool:
unikq
wow, i feel lonely, i only do one language... (german)... but speak 2 natively :biggrin:
how does one go about drilling the grammar into ones head? word order and stuff is logical and makes sense, but like adjective endings, cases, prepositions, just don't make sense. and im pretty sure spending 10 years with germans won't help, cause you'll just get the jist of what they're saying, and will lose out on accuracy...

on the accents front, i think, there is nothing better than to spend a week or so (depending on how quickly you learn) with a family in your respective language. cause that was definately the turning point for me. spent 7 days in germany, having learnt the language for less than 2 years, came back, and got a south german accent :biggrin:
and i can tell the difference between different parts of germany, and can even distinguish differences between austrians and swiss and germans!! :biggrin:



to answer the part about grammar- Id say you have to just read read read- and get as much variety as possible- read different registers

on accents- I agree- but watching a 10/20min bulletin for my works wonders as well- esp french

yeah- I started picking up a bavarian accent- or "Schabisch"- when I spent 6 weeks near munich:wink:

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