Lib-dems brexit

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niteninja1
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#1
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#1
We voted as a country to leave the European Union 😃.

Now the lib-dems are saying the will take us back in/keep us in if they ever get into power whatever the cost.

Surely as a liberal party they should except the democratic vote.

I used to vote lib dem but after this I will vote conservative and unionist party
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sleepysnooze
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#2
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#2
if they are saying "vote for us and we'll get rid of that 52% decision", are they basically saying that they feel that "only" 48% of the country will really want to vote for them? not a majority? confident - it's almost as if this is the only size they think *will* make people vote for them
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niteninja1
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#3
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#3
(Original post by sleepysnooze)
if they are saying "vote for us and we'll get rid of that 52% decision", are they basically saying that they feel that "only" 48% of the country will really want to vote for them? not a majority? confident - it's almost as if this is the only they think *will* make people vote for them
If they got 48% they may well win the conservatives only have 35%
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sleepysnooze
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#4
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#4
(Original post by niteninja1)
If they got 48% they may well win the conservatives only have 35%
if UKIP got 12% and 0.001% seats in 2015, that means that a party even like the liberal democrats would get 0.004% of the seats with 48% - that's still only 4 seats if we acknowledge the fact that the referendum's figure of 48% (the lib dem suggestion) was national, not constitutency-based where votes would hardly translate into seats
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skeptical_john
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#5
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#5
(Original post by niteninja1)
We voted as a country to leave the European Union 😃.

Now the lib-dems are saying the will take us back in/keep us in if they ever get into power whatever the cost.

Surely as a liberal party they should except the democratic vote.

I used to vote lib dem but after this I will vote conservative and unionist party
Farage said before the EU ref that if there was 52/48 in favour of remain he'd want another Ref. And lets face it there would be huge amounts of whining from brexiters.
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Davij038
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#6
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#6
I think it had legitimate for he lib dems to campaign on keeping us in the EU as a mandate by Winning a general election supercedes the mandate of the referendum which technically is non binding and advisory. It's not happening though, May is (quite reasonably) not calling a GE.

As a long standing pro EU partyi hope and think they will continue to advocate rejoining the EU.
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username1799249
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#7
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#7
(Original post by sleepysnooze)
if UKIP got 12% and 0.001% seats in 2015, that means that a party even like the liberal democrats would get 0.004% of the seats with 48% - that's still only 4 seats if we acknowledge the fact that the referendum's figure of 48% (the lib dem suggestion) was national, not constitutency-based where votes would hardly translate into seats
First past the post doesn't work by proportion. Sadly.
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gladders
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#8
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#8
(Original post by niteninja1)
We voted as a country to leave the European Union 😃.
We did not vote 'as a country' this myth that the UK is united behind Brexit is utterly fatuous. We're split down the middle.

That, and the fact that every Brexiter either peddled big fat lies or willingly swallowed them.

Now the lib-dems are saying the will take us back in/keep us in if they ever get into power whatever the cost.
The cost being that the public will be more informed and only if the Lib Dems win a general election...so why do you hate democracy?

Surely as a liberal party they should except the democratic vote.
Accept*

Part and parcel of democracy is the freedom to argue against and oppose decisions you disapprove of, however much they won the popular vote. Unless you're proposing that we shut down Parliament and simply have the Conservatives govern without any Opposition for the next few years?
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Studentus-anonymous
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#9
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#9
(Original post by niteninja1)
We voted as a country to leave the European Union 😃.

Now the lib-dems are saying the will take us back in/keep us in if they ever get into power whatever the cost.

Surely as a liberal party they should except the democratic vote.

I used to vote lib dem but after this I will vote conservative and unionist party
I've voted LibDem since I was 18, now I won't be voting for them.

Such behaviour/attitudes are neither liberal or democratic.
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gladders
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
I've voted LibDem since I was 18, now I won't be voting for them.

Such behaviour/attitudes are neither liberal or democratic.
Promising to make a decision only if you win a majority in an election is undemocratic?
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Joep95
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#11
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#11
(Original post by skeptical_john)
Farage said before the EU ref that if there was 52/48 in favour of remain he'd want another Ref. And lets face it there would be huge amounts of whining from brexiters.
Source? He said that there would be unfinished business not that he would immediately demand a second referendum.
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Studentus-anonymous
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#12
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#12
(Original post by gladders)
Promising to make a decision only if you win a majority in an election is undemocratic?
And I'm not going to help them win then am I?

also:
We did not vote 'as a country' this myth that the UK is united behind Brexit is utterly fatuous. We're split down the middle.
48% is still less than half.

The idea that a FPTP LibDem win somehow trumps a clear national high-turnout majority is--yes--undemocratic. And suicide. The Tories are smart enough to know Brexit means Brexit because oddly enough, if you give people a say on something, and then you outright wilfully ignore the majority decision, people are going to get...a bit.....let's say 'bent out of shape'.

That at best means party suicide (though the LibDems I suppose have already done that once and reanimated), and at worst means civil unrest.

Lastly it's pushing to reverse a democratic outcome so we can go straight back to the status quo of the EU which last I checked is still suffering an astounding lack of democratic accountability.

A "liberal democratic" party that supports the EU is either a bunch of hypocritical liars or willfully ignorant and thus still not fit for support.

Like I said I wont be voting LibDem any more. The party doesn't seem to respect it's own name-sake principles nor seems especially blessed with intelligence.

Good bye Liberal Democrats...once you seemed the rational moderate man's choice. *sniffle* :'(

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Davij038
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#13
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#13
(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
I've voted LibDem since I was 18, now I won't be voting for them.

Such behaviour/attitudes are neither liberal or democratic.
See gladders reply above. Anyone who thinks that Scottish independence, remaining in the EU or changing to AV is a good idea is undemocratic because a majority voted against it.

even if 99% were for Brexit, let alone 52% why should that stop a Democratic Party campaigning for what it believes in?
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gladders
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
And I'm not going to help them win then am I?

also:


48% is still less than half.
So bleeding what? Don't you believe in freedom of speech?

The idea that a FPTP LibDem win somehow trumps a clear national high-turnout majority is--yes--undemocratic. And suicide. The Tories are smart enough to know Brexit means Brexit because oddly enough, if you give people a say on something, and then you outright wilfully ignore the majority decision, people are going to get...a bit.....let's say 'bent out of shape'.
People are going to get bent out of shape anyway, as 'Brexit means Brexit' means nothing. A soft Brexit will anger the swivel-eyed loons and John Redwoods of the world. A hard Brexit will anger the slightly less mad ones.

And no, it's still perfectly democratic for a Lib Dem government to legislate to block Brexit. The referendum should not have happened in the first place. Seeing as it's foolhardy to have referendums on such massively complex and emotional issues, it's not only democratic, it's responsible.

That at best means party suicide (though the LibDems I suppose have already done that once and reanimated), and at worst means civil unrest.
If they won a majority on such a platform, it would mean the opposite.

Lastly it's pushing to reverse a democratic outcome so we can go straight back to the status quo of the EU which last I checked is still suffering an astounding lack of democratic accountability.
Big fat effing lie.

A "liberal democratic" party that supports the EU is either a bunch of hypocritical liars or willfully ignorant and thus still not fit for support.
No, they just believe in facts rather than truthiness

Like I said I wont be voting LibDem any more. The party doesn't seem to respect it's own name-sake principles nor seems especially blessed with intelligence.

Good bye Liberal Democrats...once you seemed the rational moderate man's choice. *sniffle* :'(

I think they'll be relieved.
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skeptical_john
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#15
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#15
(Original post by joecphillips)
Source? He said that there would be unfinished business not that he would immediately demand a second referendum.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b08d2c56393f12

To be honest I dont want a second referendum but it is a perfectly electable position for a party to hold. 35% of people want a 2nd eu ref they deserve representation.
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Joep95
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#16
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#16
(Original post by skeptical_john)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b08d2c56393f12

To be honest I dont want a second referendum but it is a perfectly electable position for a party to hold. 35% of people want a 2nd eu ref they deserve representation.
The quote they use to say he would call for a second referendum says exactly what I said he said that there would be 'unfinished business' it does not say what they assume he meant
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skeptical_john
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#17
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#17
(Original post by joecphillips)
The quote they use to say he would call for a second referendum says exactly what I said he said that there would be 'unfinished business' it does not say what they assume he meant
Right how could we possible infer that unfinished business could mean working towards another referendum. No doubt UKIP would have folded and we'd never hear of the EU again.
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Joep95
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#18
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#18
(Original post by skeptical_john)
Right how could we possible infer that unfinished business could mean working towards another referendum. No doubt UKIP would have folded and we'd never hear of the EU again.
It could mean that but what proof do you have it means that? Or is it just convenient to say it definitely means that to help your argument?
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IssyCon
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#19
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#19
They will not win the vote for at least 4 years. By that time, we can see the consequences of Brexit. We have had referenda on the EU before, where people voted remain. People change their minds and IF Farron gets into power ( which will most likely be 14+ years away), I think he will have the right to request another referendum. By that time, a lot more people will be eligable to vote. Also remember that there are a lot of 15/16/17 yos who had no vote in the referendum, who will see voting for the LDs as their chance to have their say.
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MagicNMedicine
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#20
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#20
If we are in a situation where the Lib Dems have won power then some sort of seismic shift will have happened in public opinion including towards remaining in the EU so a lot of things will be different after then.

In reality the Lib Dems aren't going to win power.

What may happen is that by campaigning to remain or if we leave, to subsequently rejoin the EU, they will win back disillusioned Remainers in the Tory v Lib Dem constituencies that the Lib Dems won from the Tories over the period 1997 to 2005 and lost back to the Tories in 2015. So they may collect some of those seats back. But still I would be surprised if they had more than about 15 MPs in 2020.

The more likely Brexit reversal scenario would be over a longer time line, if Brexit goes badly for the UK and the Eurozone sorts itself out and outperforms the UK (a big if) then in 2030 or so we might start seeing a push for rejoining the EU - which would involve joining the Eurozone as well. By this point, some of the older generation of Leave voters will be no longer with us and if the current young generation of Remainers are still generally disillusioned with society through not being able to get housing, saddled with student debt, insecure job contracts etc, plus there's another young pro-EU generation coming through, then the public mood may be in favour of rejoining. In that situation a Labour government or a Labour-led Coalition that includes SNP, Lib Dems, Greens, may well go to the country with a "rejoin" referendum.

I think the idea of a second referendum or reversal of Brexit now is wishful thinking from remainers. The government changes Theresa May has initiated with creating David Davis' and Liam Fox's departments mean the UK is basically being set up to leave whatever. Over the longer term, whether the democratic support for being outside the EU will hold, depends on Brexit being a success. If it is, then it will drop off the political agenda and in to history. If it is not, then it will always be a running sore point in UK politics.
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