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    Modesty - The quality or state of being unassuming in the estimation of one's abilities.

    A rich man driving a Ferrari is considered less modest than a rich man driving a Ford Fiesta. A rich man driving a Ford Fiesta may be considered an act of modesty. Modesty is to intentionally not flaunt something which you have which one believes is desirable. This may already seem paradoxical, but with a Ferrari (or any other thing which evidently is highly desirable) there is no paradox to this. Ferraris are clearly highly desirable, or they would not have such high prices. The owner is not being very immodest by treating his car as something desirable and trying to be modest by not flaunting it, because its price is firm evidence that it is very desirable. He is therefore not making any kind of vain assumtions about himself or (in this case) his property.

    To hide your body in-order to be modest is to believe that your body is highly desired. Without your body having a price, and without a large amount of people to see it and judge, this belief is left entirely to the woman who chooses to veil herself. Therefore, we have a paradox: in her attempt to be modest, she is self-evidently being immodest by judging that she would be being immodest to show her body, as the only way she could think that she was being immodest by doing so would be if she considered her body to be highly desirable.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Modesty - The quality or state of being unassuming in the estimation of one's abilities.

    A rich man driving a Ferrari is considered less modest than a rich man driving a Ford Fiesta. A rich man driving a Ford Fiesta may be considered an act of modesty. Modesty is to intentionally not flaunt something which you have which one believes is desirable. This may already seem paradoxical, but with a Ferrari (or any other thing which evidently is highly desirable) there is no paradox to this. Ferraris are clearly highly desirable, or they would not have such high prices. The owner is not being very immodest by treating his car as something desirable and trying to be modest by not flaunting it, because its price is firm evidence that it is very desirable. He is therefore not making any kind of vain assumtions about himself or (in this case) his property.

    To hide your body in-order to be modest is to believe that your body is highly desired. Without your body having a price, and without a large amount of people to see it and judge, this belief is left entirely to the woman who chooses to veil herself. Therefore, we have a paradox: in her attempt to be modest, she is self-evidently being immodest by judging that she would be being immodest to show her body, as the only way she could think that she was being immodest by doing so would be if she considered her body to be highly desirable.
    Interesting take on it. Although surely it's already well known that veiling is done in order to keep men from having 'unwell' thoughts because apparently every woman's body is desirable. Thus it sort of 'normalizes' the ferarri as if half the entire population of the nation had one, albeit some in better shape than others. But it's an interesting idea to think it as a paradox.

    I'd say there should be more focus on improving men's willpower rather than make women veil themselves but that's another topic.
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    (Original post by Caius Filimon)
    Interesting take on it. Although surely it's already well known that veiling is done in order to keep men from having 'unwell' thoughts because apparently every woman's body is desirable. Thus it sort of 'normalizes' the ferarri as if half the entire population of the nation had one, albeit some in better shape than others. But it's an interesting idea to think it as a paradox.

    I'd say there should be more focus on improving men's willpower rather than make women veil themselves but that's another topic.
    Definitely, although I don't think that's a problem in most non-Islamic or non-African countries. Also, the more sexually repressed the society, the more desperate the men will become, and they will think that any women showing skin is "asking for it". Muslims are obsessed with sex. Many Islamic cultures are massively shaped by their attempts to repress and hide sex. If they stopped constantly obsessing over it, perhaps the men would be able to see woman in a bikini and not see her as a slut asking to be raped, but someone wearing clothes that are particularly suited to sunbathing and swimming.


    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    I thought this was going to be about women in hijabs wearing high heels, tight jeans and makeup, a thread more about the hypocrisy rather than actual paradoxes. Philosophy isn't really my area, so I'll just make a few minor points

    Remember, veils are quite uniform, so there is less individualism, fewer ways someone can express their belief in their exceptionalism

    The English definition of modesty does not necessarily reflect the spirit behind the use of the Arabic word in the Qu'ran - modesty might be a close but inexact word to what muslims really mean
    Of course, I don't actually think many Muslim women are truly being immodest by wearing veils. I'm sure they mainly do it our of convention, to assert their identity as Muslims, to show their faithfulness to Islam, or out of fear. However, when Muslims explain that the women wear veils out of "modesty", as they often do, they get themselves into the bind I describe above.

    Another nice little bind they get themselves into is when they complain about "objectification" in Western society (as if they give a damn or have any idea about feminism) and then go onto explain how they cover their women because they see them as precious jewels that shouldn't be shown off to the world. It's one of those kind of stock responses that Muslims seem to have stored up, rather like Christians when they go on about how God moves in mysterious ways.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I've thought about this too, especially when I see old, ugly Muslim women wearing the hijab and in my head I'm like "you really think someone would be attracted to you if you took it off?"
    Then again there has been a few women in their 70s and 80s raped by young migrants in Germany so they probably had the standardless migrant crowd in mind, rather than western men when covering themselves.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    I thought this was going to be about women in hijabs wearing high heels, tight jeans and makeup, a thread more about the hypocrisy rather than actual paradoxes. Philosophy isn't really my area, so I'll just make a few minor points

    Remember, veils are quite uniform, so there is less individualism, fewer ways someone can express their belief in their exceptionalism

    The English definition of modesty does not necessarily reflect the spirit behind the use of the Arabic word in the Qu'ran - modesty might be a close but inexact word to what muslims really mean
    so what is the more arabic meaning of the word modesty - 'not tempting men with parts of body' ? havent we moved on as a species from this idea?

    in terms of hijab as a uniform- id disagree i can think of at least 5 different versions , from full black cover up ( with inner headscarf), to head and neck , to loosley on top of head, to fashinale colourful loose scarf
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Definitely, although I don't think that's a problem in most non-Islamic or non-African countries. Also, the more sexually repressed the society, the more desperate the men will become, and they will think that any women showing skin is "asking for it". Muslims are obsessed with sex. Many Islamic cultures are massively shaped by their attempts to repress and hide sex. If they stopped constantly obsessing over it, perhaps the men would be able to see woman in a bikini and not see her as a slut asking to be raped, but someone wearing clothes that are particularly suited to sunbathing and swimming.




    Of course, I don't actually think many Muslim women are truly being immodest by wearing veils. I'm sure they mainly do it our of convention, to assert their identity as Muslims, to show their faithfulness to Islam, or out of fear. However, when Muslims explain that the women wear veils out of "modesty", as they often do, they get themselves into the bind I describe above.

    Another nice little bind they get themselves into is when they complain about "objectification" in Western society (as if they give a damn or have any idea about feminism) and then go onto explain how they cover their women because they see them as precious jewels that shouldn't be shown off to the world. It's one of those kind of stock responses that Muslims seem to have stored up, rather like Christians when they go on about how God moves in mysterious ways.
    I think there should be family values/abstinence taught even in today's world, although I also think that most Western culture should be changed so that's another topic of convo

    I do agree that if they are *too* repressed in that way it will not help them, society, or even the religion itself.

    Likewise, I'd guess you're referring to non-Westernized Muslims, surely?
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    (Original post by Caius Filimon)
    I think there should be family values/abstinence taught even in today's world, although I also think that most Western culture should be changed so that's another topic of convo

    I do agree that if they are *too* repressed in that way it will not help them, society, or even the religion itself.

    Likewise, I'd guess you're referring to non-Westernized Muslims, surely?
    We'll have to agree to disagree on that, as I'm a staunch liberal and not a huge fan of abstinence or "family values". And yes, I'm not talking about properly Westernised Muslims.
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