English "class system"- do you believe in it?

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Blood & Honour
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#21
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Yeh, the problem we have is that people from say Working class backgrounds feel that they stick to their type of jobs, and there are too many barriers for them to freeley choose say a career in politics for example.
Just like you would not expect all these rich upper middle class kids to become brickeys
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Masonne
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(Original post by Blood & Honour)
Well since i had just gone thrugh it that day i feel VERY strong about this, do you not accept these facts?
hi,
i accept the facts you present but i dont accept that these facts undermine what i said. i did say the last decade or so and taking those figures into account the UK does far better than the period 1990-99.

Here are the figures from the IFS: 1993-2003.

UK: 2.3, 4.4, 2.8, 2.7, 3.3, 3.1, 2.8, 3.8, 2.1, 1.7, 2.3. The average is 2.8.
France: 0.9, 1.8, 1.9, 1, 1.9, 3.5, 3, 3.8, 2, 1.2, 0.06. The average is 1.91.
Italy: -0.9, 2.2, 1.1, 2, 1.8, 1.6, 3, 1.8, 0.4, 0.3. The average is 1.37
Germany: -1.8, 2.3, 1.7, 0.8, 1.5, 1.8, 2.1, 2.9, 0.8, 0.2, -0.1 The average is 1.1.
Japan: 0.2, 1.1, 1.9, 3.6, 1.8, -1.2, 0.2, 2.8, 0.4, -0.3, 2.7. The average is 1.2.

However, even though figures are (to a large extent) objective the conclusions drawn from them are not as im sure you recognise. There are various figures for economic growth each painting a slightly different picture to the last.

For example, just by browsing some of my university notes i found world bank figures which show GDP growth from 1975-2000.
The average for the UK is 2%, Germany 1.9%, and France 1.7%

i guess it goes to show figures and statistics can prove anything. worrying really when you think of how politicians can use them.
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Masonne
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(Original post by Blood & Honour)
Just like you would not expect all these rich upper middle class kids to become brickeys
its surprising though, i was really shocked yesterday when i read an article in the times the other day about the number of graduates from 'top' universities, including oxbridge and the rest of the G5, that are taking jobs, maybe not exactly like brickeys, but certainly plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc etc.
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Masonne
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(Original post by Blood & Honour)
Yeh, the problem we have is that people from say Working class backgrounds feel that they stick to their type of jobs, and there are too many barriers for them to freeley choose say a career in politics for example.
but you are right, people from 'working class' backgrounds or those not as fortunate as others do need to be released from the mentality that they cannot choose any career they want to, be it politics or anyhting else.
and the flips ide is to help open up this access.

do you think policies such as lowering university grade requirements for such people the answer? or do you see this as prejudice?
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_Shines_
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but you are right, people from 'working class' backgrounds or those not as fortunate as others do need to be released from the mentality that they cannot choose any career they want to, be it politics or anyhting else.
and the flips ide is to help open up this access.

Everyone has the choice in what they do- its determination that drives the "lower" classes more than the others, the need to succeed...( and that is MY personal opinion)

do you think policies such as lowering university grade requirements for such people the answer? or do you see this as prejudice?

And no I don't think lowering the grade policy is- the education system in the uk is rather confused to put it politely- They would be better of introducing the IB- A more realistic look into the capbilities of each individual student!

Please lets not take the working class chip on the shoulder story line- what about the poor girls in brazil in the favelas who really have a hard time- they are below the poor of the poor, same in some parts of lisbon...

And no I'm not embarassed by my "class", but I honestly don't think an introduction of comunism would work- we have grown to be too much of a consumer society!
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Howard
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(Original post by Charters)
The English love their classes...so they say.
Would the UK be actually better off using a communist type regime? Equality for all? No rich or poor? What class would you say you were; working, middle, upper?
Communist societies do have "rich and poor" my friend. An engineer and communist party member does not live the same as a non membered road sweep in any communist regime in the world.

But, to answer your question I long hope that the class system will prevail.
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an Siarach
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(Original post by Charters)
The English love their classes...so they say.
Would the UK be actually better off using a communist type regime? Equality for all? No rich or poor? What class would you say you were; working, middle, upper?
Communism maintains the class system while denying it. At 'best' it simply creates equality through enforced mediocrity. Those whos labours are of a higher level of skill deserve to be paid more than those who perform tasks within the capacity of practically any man.
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edufly
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(Original post by an Siarach)
Communism maintains the class system while denying it. At 'best' it simply creates equality through enforced mediocrity. Those whos labours are of a higher level of skill deserve to be paid more than those who perform tasks within the capacity of practically any man.

under communism every person is just a statistic
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kingslaw
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#29
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(Original post by eddiedaboss)
under communism every person is just a statistic
Thats nice.

Did you know the moon was made out of cheese?
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happysunshine
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#30
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The class system, is still alive and well.

To say it's not is very naive. I accept it isn't talked about so much, and there are laws to prevent discrimination. I also accept it's now easier to more through the classes, than it was even, 50 years ago.

In my opinion you're from a working class family if you're parents work, and if they don't for whatever reason (even if they are too rich to work), your from an unemployed family.

What I love seeing is all these lower middle class, what next? Lower upper middle working class? People use these "lower", "middle", etc. to make them top of their real class. Not that I agree with such labelling. I mean, get a life.

You can't tell me that you'd trust a woman with your life, unemployed, with six kids living in a council owned flat more than a barrister with a flash car and flash house? It's sad, it really is and this is all because of their class and the judgements we make because of it.
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d750
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Most people would accept that class is determined in Britain by a mixture of outlook and ability. There is a sufficient level of social mobility to ensure that, generally speaking, a person can move up or down according to their inclinations and capabilities. To turn Britain into a classless society, then, you would have to ignore differences in inclinations and abilities, and that simply seems unjust to a great many people.

So the class system as it stands (imo) is a fair and natural one. But the problem with having a fair system, in which people can move up and down quite freely, is that it can give some people the wrong impression about the necessary mixture of inclination and capability. By seeing a large number of people moving up, some can be fooled into thinking that it's simply a case of inclination, and that simply wanting to improve your lot is enough. The way to deal with these unreasonable aspirations is arguably to add certain measures to stabilise the class system - one of which is to introduce the kind of higher education system you get in the US.
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4Ed
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#32
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(Original post by d750)
Most people would accept that class is determined in Britain by a mixture of outlook and ability. There is a sufficient level of social mobility to ensure that, generally speaking, a person can move up or down according to their inclinations and capabilities. To turn Britain into a classless society, then, you would have to ignore differences in inclinations and abilities, and that simply seems unjust to a great many people.

So the class system as it stands (imo) is a fair and natural one. But the problem with having a fair system, in which people can move up and down quite freely, is that it can give some people the wrong impression about the necessary mixture of inclination and capability. By seeing a large number of people moving up, some can be fooled into thinking that it's simply a case of inclination, and that simply wanting to improve your lot is enough. The way to deal with these unreasonable aspirations is arguably to add certain measures to stabilise the class system - one of which is to introduce the kind of higher education system you get in the US.
i don't understand what you mean by inclination... can you explain?
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d750
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#33
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(Original post by 4Ed)
i don't understand what you mean by inclination... can you explain?
Yeah, sorry. I just meant that there will be some people who are capable of moving up socially (by taking a degree etc.) but don't really want to. Likewise, there will be people, for example, born into a class which they don't feel inclined to maintain themselves in. So it's not just a question of ability - people will progress or regress depending on what they want to do.
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an Siarach
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#34
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(Original post by d750)
Yeah, sorry. I just meant that there will be some people who are capable of moving up socially (by taking a degree etc.) but don't really want to. Likewise, there will be people, for example, born into a class which they don't feel inclined to maintain themselves in. So it's not just a question of ability - people will progress or regress depending on what they want to do.
Movement between working, middle and upper class is dependant upon what level of work your profession involves, for example a mechanic is working, a teacher is middle and a QC is upper. The two extremes of the social ladder in addition to these 3 classes are those who do not work for whatever reason, be they welfare frauds or aristocracy. Movement up the social ladder is open to anyone should they have the ability and determination, so i would consider the 'class system' as it is commonly percieved to be dead as there are no closed orders(at least not to its former extent) as regards the working world.
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4Ed
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i think better education is the key to moving between social classes, not determination. this probably incorporates the idea in the above post that a QC > teacher > mechanic. it does seem to follow an 'education correlation'.

educated people have better general knowledge/vocabulary/awareness of different social groups, and can move more freely between the classes.

pro footballers could earn millions and be 100% determined, but that doesn't make them upper class.
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d750
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#36
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(Original post by 4Ed)
i think better education is the key to moving between social classes, not determination.
It does take determination to get a good education, 'though.
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an Siarach
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#37
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(Original post by 4Ed)
i think better education is the key to moving between social classes, not determination. this probably incorporates the idea in the above post that a QC > teacher > mechanic. it does seem to follow an 'education correlation'.

educated people have better general knowledge/vocabulary/awareness of different social groups, and can move more freely between the classes.

pro footballers could earn millions and be 100% determined, but that doesn't make them upper class.
True, its not just determination that allows movement up the ladder its a combination of that and ability.
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4Ed
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(Original post by d750)
It does take determination to get a good education, 'though.
that's true.

so how many generations does it take for a clan to start from working class, and reach the established upper class?
answers on a postcard please
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Muse
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#39
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(Original post by an Siarach)
Movement between working, middle and upper class is dependant upon what level of work your profession involves, for example a mechanic is working, a teacher is middle and a QC is upper. The two extremes of the social ladder in addition to these 3 classes are those who do not work for whatever reason, be they welfare frauds or aristocracy. Movement up the social ladder is open to anyone should they have the ability and determination, so i would consider the 'class system' as it is commonly percieved to be dead as there are no closed orders(at least not to its former extent) as regards the working world.
A QC is not upper class, a QC would be upper-middle class. The only true 'upper classes' are the aristocracy so the old class system is a closed model in that respect.
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an Siarach
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(Original post by 4Ed)
that's true.

so how many generations does it take for a clan to start from working class, and reach the established upper class?
answers on a postcard please
Well in theory anyone could be born into the lowest type of welfare leeching family and be part of the upper class before they hit 30, thanks to our education/university system.
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