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    People didn't believe in the existence of radio waves and other forces that we now rely on for our technology . . until methods of detecting and using them were found.

    In the same way we cannot sense God, but what if there was a way to illuminate him to truly exist, that most people have simply never searched for nor found?

    If there were a method or protocol presented, I wonder how many people would not fear to put it to the test?
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    what would people fear ?
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    the existence
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    Community Assistant
    Hmm… Interesting…
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    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
    If such a way of "detecting" God was discovered, then I'd see no reason to abandon the scientific method- just as if a new kind of radio wave was discovered.
    However there's no point postulating the existence of such a "way to illuminate Him" without any evidence or clear aim, just as nobody postulated the existence of radiowaves etc. before having any ideas on how to test it in the future.


    ...perhaps.
    Vague questions confuse me.
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    Invisible Pink Unicorn
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    what, a god - radar ? personally i'd just laugh at anyone who even tried to attempt it. How or where would you even begin to start looking? under a bed?
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    But that would be Testing Your Faith, and so Like Doubting Peter you would be Frowned Upon by the Church...
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    so are you saying god will text me back
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    I don't think God is on the Electromagnetic Spectrum..
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    (Original post by NickNack)
    what, a god - radar ? personally i'd just laugh at anyone who even tried to attempt it. How or where would you even begin to start looking? under a bed?
    no hes behind he couch

    just like the tee shirt says
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    nah, already caught jesus pissing around behind that (yep, im going to hell for that lol)

    (Original post by iTalya)
    I don't think God is on the Electromagnetic Spectrum..
    or...maybe god IS the electromagnetic spectrum?!?!
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    What happens when a person puts the Bible to the test without messing about with the procedure? Does it work, what are the apparent results and if there are any are they reliable?

    “These signs shall follow them that believe, they shall speak with new tongues; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.” (Jesus in Mark 16v17-18)

    “If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you… Ask and you shall receive that your joy may be full.” (Jesus in John 15v7, 16v24).

    Could these statements possibly be true?
    Many people have read the Bible and read the promises but never put them to the test themselves. It’s like a man with cancer reading about a simple medical cure, but dismissing it without ever having put it to the test. If it’s a true cure then it will work for him and everyone; if it’s false it won’t work at all, but the only way to find out is to try it.

    The procedure comes down to this and this alone, nothing more nothing less, “Men and brethren what must we do? Then Peter replied and said, Repent (1) and be baptized [by full immersion] (2) each and every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit (3)” (Acts 2v38). “and when they were filled with the Holy Spirit they all began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2v4).

    So in other words, the Bible promises that if a person does steps (1) and (2), God will do step (3); a very simple procedure.

    Let’s examine the results, when other people have put these words of the Bible to the test:
    I did 1-3 (did 3 before 2), found fulfilling purpose, answers to all personal problems and a new nature, God's.
    Otto-repented, got baptized, received the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues, healed of non-Hodgkin’s lymph gland cancer.
    Anna- knew nothing about the Bible, repented, got baptized received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues, healed of alcoholism.
    Dan- got baptized in case it was true, was unexpectedly healed of a broken neck of three years, speaks in tongues.
    Yarni- repented, got baptized by her dad, healed of eczema covering her body, and speaks in tongues.
    Nikki- repented, got baptized speaks in tongues, healed of arthritis in both knees without any operation.
    Stephan- repented, got baptized under water, received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, delivered from an addiction to drugs, healed from food poisoning. . . . the list goes on.

    So if science and knowledge is ever moving forward, always being reconstituted by new evidence then what will you as the reader do with this new evidence presented before you? Here is the protocol and here are the results. Others have done the experiment, and have observed consistency. Is it true? Perform the protocol for yourself. Thank you for reading.
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    If someone was able to prove God empirically He wouldn't be the God that most people worship.
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    (Original post by Blue!)
    If someone was able to prove God empirically He wouldn't be the God that most people worship.
    Same for evolution.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    People didn't believe in the existence of radio waves and other forces that we now rely on for our technology . . until methods of detecting and using them were found.
    there was the potential for radio waves and all other electromagnetic waves to exist

    [/QUOTE=NJA]In the same way we cannot sense God, but what if there was a way to illuminate him to truly exist, that most people have simply never searched for nor found?[/QUOTE]
    There is not much potential for god to exist and even if there were, why does it matter?
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    (Original post by NJA)
    People didn't believe in the existence of radio waves and other forces that we now rely on for our technology . . until methods of detecting and using them were found.

    In the same way we cannot sense God, but what if there was a way to illuminate him to truly exist, that most people have simply never searched for nor found?

    If there were a method or protocol presented, I wonder how many people would not fear to put it to the test?
    Please consider this response. I am also very tired, so please excuse me if my sentences flail around like the Second Vatican Council.

    Your argument is:
    P1 People [often] don't believe in something until there is evidence for it.
    P2 Such evidence can be obtained through an empirical methodology
    P3 There is such a methodolgy for God (see below)
    P4 Many people have never searched for God
    C1 Those who search for God, through his teachings [this methodology] will find him.
    C2 They will find God as an empirical 'truth'.

    *I add [often] as it's accepted people believe things without good evidence, children and the tooth fairy as an example. Not worth going down that alley. 'Truth' is in quotation marks not to be derogatory, but as the only pure truths are those of logic.

    Your methodology is paraphrased:
    (2)P1. If one repents sin and is baptised
    (2)P2. And believes and follows in Jesus Christ
    (2)C. Then they will find God who will make himself known.


    My argument:

    I have no qualms with P1, P2, P4: I believe in the usefulness of empirical testing, and I believe that many people have never (to use your terms) 'looked for God' or (to use my terms) 'considered religion, or spiritualism'.

    My objections are twofold.

    1. I put it to you that while many people haven't 'looked for God', a large number have. God has not made himself known and so they have dismissed the concept.

    I say that people have looked for God in many ways, here are some ideas:
    • Those who have attended Church on their own free will
    • That have read parts of the Bible and considered what is said
    • That have been ill (and without prior faith), have prayed to God and not been cured.


    I argue that these people have looked for God in the sense that is suggested by religious believers, the church and the bible.

    My second objection is in answer to how you would respond to this. You might say "Ah! But it is not so simple, one must follow the methodolgy Jesus' teaches", or maybe "but they did not honestly or truthfully believe in God!".

    Therein lies the problem with your argument.

    If you want to use this methodology as an empircal justification you cannot presuppose belief.

    2. To put it this way. Person A has not particularly thought about religion. One day they suddenly think "hold on this might be important!", and so decided for a while to go along to Church and bible study sessions. They are trying to find God. However according to you this will not work.

    They can only find God once they wholeheartedly believe in Jesus' teachings. And by believing in Jesus' teachings they must already accept the existence of God. As such they have already found God, before God will make himself known by your methodology.

    What your methodology really says is:

    (3)P1. If one repents sin and is baptised
    (3)P2. And believes and follows in Jesus Christ
    (3)C. Then they already believe in God.

    As such it is not an empirical methodology. God does not have to make himself known. It is a statement and a priori argument of prior belief. It is a circular self supporting set of conditions.

    As someone has pointed out, people didn't believe in radio waves before they were discovered. Certainly, those who did discover them might have believed such waves to exist as a result of observations of the movements of instruments in a lab, but these were still observations and evidence. Observations and evidence that with proper instruments and a proper test that could be substantiated time and time again.

    A belief in radio waves is not necessary to see they exist. While some people hold there is evidence for God, many people think this evidence is not strong, and the vast majority think it is evidence that cannot be subtantiated or proved over again in a scientific test.

    An empirical methodology could be possible for God, but one that isn't flawed like the above would have to go along the lines of:
    (4)P1. When one prays to God
    (4)P2. God responds
    (4)C. God exists

    This would be of a miraculous nature, and I call it as such as it certainly isn't common place. Even if some people do believe God has responded to them, for the majority this would require a more than healthy dose of prior belief in construing the response as an act of God rather than say, mere coincidence. Empirical 'truths' require a level of unchanging, regular and reliable evidence, which science and most people including Theists would accept we do not have in the case of God. Indeed, many Theists would say that faith alone is best. But then, that will never sway the non-believers.

    I look forward to your response.

    I really do.

    You see I have a habit of killing threads like this :-\.

    :tsr2:
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    (Original post by KPeh)
    Please consider this response. I am also very tired, so please excuse me if my sentences flail around like the Second Vatican Council.

    *Snip*

    I look forward to your response.

    I really do.

    You see I have a habit of killing threads like this :-\.

    :tsr2:
    But religion is blind, lemming-like FAITH and thus cannot be tested... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by NJA)
    People didn't believe in the existence of radio waves and other forces that we now rely on for our technology . . until methods of detecting and using them were found.

    In the same way we cannot sense God, but what if there was a way to illuminate him to truly exist, that most people have simply never searched for nor found?

    If there were a method or protocol presented, I wonder how many people would not fear to put it to the test?
    If you show someone evidence from some sort of "God-o-meter", it's not evidence of any sort of actual God. You could theoretically show the existence of some sort of invisible being who can exert power over human affairs, but this is very different to what the idea of God, to most, means.

    (Original post by NJA)
    Same for evolution.
    No, because evolution is a theory which is entirely defined in terms which are conducive to empirical evidence; I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

    (Original post by NJA)
    What happens when a person puts the Bible to the test without messing about with the procedure? Does it work, what are the apparent results and if there are any are they reliable?
    A genuine scientific study was done into the effect of prayer on the recovery of those with serious illnesses. There were, I believe, three groups; one who weren't prayed for, one who were prayed for without their knowledge, and one who were prayed for with their knowledge. No significant difference was found between the recovery rates of those who were prayed for and those who weren't. I think there was a slightly worse recovery rate for those who were prayed for with their knowledge, but nothing important.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    Same for evolution.
    Evolution, gravity and atomic theory cannot be proved by empiricism.
 
 
 
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