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JonathanH
I think most people have a justified sense of revulsion.


I don't believe it is justified unless a paedophile acts upon his or her desires- what people think about is noones business.

Of course, the thought or porking a kiddie makes me feel ill- but then so does the thought of old people screwing.
Reply 21
girls are still very much developing at 14, it may have started but still a long way off completion. 16 is a lot closer to full development usually.
Reply 22
cottonmouth
No, it doesn't depend on how they look. Its about maturity of the mind, not the body.


That's as maybe; however I think it has already been established beyond reasonable doubt that preventing Jade Goody from having sex would solve most of the world's problems.
Profesh
That's as maybe; however I think it has already been established beyond reasonable doubt that preventing Jade Goody from having sex would solve most of the world's problems.


Ah, she may be thick as ****, but she can still legally ****. i'm merely talking about a scenario where the age of consent is being considered for a remodel...metal maturity should play a far higher role than whether the person has tits or not.
Reply 24
cottonmouth
Ah, she may be thick as ****, but she can still legally ****. i'm merely talking about a scenario where the age of consent is being considered for a remodel...metal maturity should play a far higher role than whether the person has tits or not.


To be frank, I think that matters are already decidedly beyond the pale where law is being cited as a justification for morality.
Profesh
To be frank, I think that matters are already somewhat beyond the pale where the law is being cited as a justification for morality.


Well, either that or support for thick people having their penises cut off, or their vaginas stitched up? Morality,ey?
Reply 26
cottonmouth
Well, either that or support for thick people having their penises cut off, or their vaginas stitched up? Morality,ey?


I'm sure Jade Goody can somehow be rendered subject to emergency 'anti-terror' legislation.
Profesh
I'm sure Jade Goody can somehow be rendered subject to emergency 'anti-terror' legislation.


As Britain's Paris Hilton(yes, i feel short-changed too), i'm sure she wouldn't have too hard a time in wrestling the law, however thick she is. Money talks. Hey, Lady Goody has a ring to it.
Reply 28
Profesh

Inherently abusive? Only insofar as our concept of 'abuse' inheres within the strict, legislative parameters of black-letter 'consent'. Indeed, it is trite that most such victims of abuse (albeit which consists purely in intercourse, as opposed to anything necessarily vindictive) only manifest 'trauma' once their perception of the world has been adequately coloured [tainted] by moral consensus, hence the ensuing (and oddly subsequent) 'harm' removed to so preposterous a degree causatively from its appertaining act. Transposed to an 'Adam and Eve' scenario, where nobody exists to impute to them the (essentially, quite arbitrary) notion that sex is not a legitimate expression of a parent's affection for their child (particularly where said 'child' is approaching the putative threshhold of adolescence, such that physical disfigurement is no longer inevitable): whither harm? In fact, it seems to me that the 'harm' occurs when society presumes to undermine an individual's self-determination and inform then that they have, notwithstanding any prior sentiment to the contrary, been 'victimised'.

What you are advocating is, basically, moral dogma; albeit one whose net benefit to our society (and our children) vindicates the fallacy of a moral continuum that it is predicated upon.


You raise an interesting point. To take just one example, the teacher in The History Boys who feels up the kids was apparently based on a real teacher Alan Bennett had, but he's portrayed pretty sympathetically, and Bennett doesn't seem to have suffered any lasting trauma as a result of it. Of course child abuse very frequently does severely **** up the child in question, but it doesn't seem to happen in every case.
Reply 29
I think someone who regards pedophilia as a sexual orientation does not understand what sexual orientation means. Furthermore, as others have said, by labelling pedophilia a sexual orientation, you give it an undeserved legitimacy.

There are people who get off on the idea of nonconsensual sex, i.e. rape. The Internet is full of quite disgusting porn depicting women getting raped. Now, would we argue that these people also belong to a separate sexual orientation, raptophilia, perhaps? No, of course we won't.

In my opinion, the fundamental issue in regards to sexual relations is consent, and the ability to give an informed consent. People of certain age and a sound mind, aware of the sexual nature of the act should be able to do whatever they wish.
-1984-
In my opinion, the fundamental issue in regards to sexual relations is consent, and the ability to give an informed consent. People of certain age and a sound mind, aware of the sexual nature of the act should be able to do whatever they wish.

See, that's what I said right back at the beginning - most people feel like that - the line is consenting adults (in this case, I suppose, 16 year olds as adults).
Reply 31
JonathanH
See, that's what I said right back at the beginning - most people feel like that - the line is consenting adults (in this case, I suppose, 16 year olds as adults).


Exactly.

I think any society which attaches even a shred of value to individual autonomy and freedom of expression would base their views and laws around consent when it comes sexual relations. All other factors are largely irrelevant.
-1984-
All other factors are largely irrelevant.

Any hole's a goal, right?
Reply 33
JonathanH
Any hole's a goal, right?


Lol. I was not expecting that.

When I said 'other factors', I meant religious, procreational factors.
Oh. Not really where my mind went first...
Reply 35
JonathanH
Oh. Not really where my mind went first...


That's unfair. Just because I made that comment, you automatically made an assumption.

Moving on.
Reply 36
I think someone who regards pedophilia as a sexual orientation does not understand what sexual orientation means. Furthermore, as others have said, by labelling pedophilia a sexual orientation, you give it an undeserved legitimacy.


I think sexual orientiation perfectly describes paedophilia- yes paedophilia has negative consequences when acted upon (which is doesn't have to be), but that doesn't deny the fact that its a relatively widespread, conscious desire, even love that cannot be altered and is not a choice. Whats the difference between finding young people attractive or finding men/women attractive? A rape fetish is more of a choice, and can be changed. Also its not directed at a group of people, the definition of orientation, but just is one sexual practice which someone happens to enjoy. Its completely different.

Therefore, I think paedophilia should have more legitimacy.. As has been said by cottonmouth and others the demonisation of paedophilia probably causes more harm than good. Its probably one reason while some paedophiles end up raping and abusing children rather than sitting in their rooms looking longingly at children. Paedophiles at the moment have no support from anyone- they are just immediately regarded as evil people, and I think that attitude is very wrong. The paedophiles out there who recognise that they can never touch a child are good people not evil people- and they should be helped by the law rather than forced to withdraw from society. Imagine in today's world being an "out celibate paedophile" and informing people of this. Imagine their reaction. That reaction is whats wrong with peoples attitudes to paedophilia at the moment.
Reply 37
Elmo_321
I think sexual orientiation perfectly describes paedophilia- yes paedophilia has negative consequences when acted upon (which is doesn't have to be), but that doesn't deny the fact that its a relatively widespread, conscious desire, even love that cannot be altered and is not a choice.


'Relatively widespread'? Relative to what? Pedophilia is quite rare and only attracts grossly unproportionate media coverage because of the emotions it arouses among most people. Rape also attracts a hugely unproportionate attention of the media, simply because of our attitudes towards who we see as vulnerable.

Also, you cannot dismiss the negative consequences that granting pedophilia sexual orientation status would bring about.

Elmo_321
Whats the difference between finding young people attractive or finding men/women attractive? A rape fetish is more of a choice, and can be changed. Also its not directed at a group of people, the definition of orientation, but just is one sexual practice which someone happens to enjoy. Its completely different..


Of course, there are different degrees, but reptophilia can be ingrained in many people, to the same extent that pedoophilia can be in others.

Elmo_321
Therefore, I think paedophilia should have more legitimacy.. As has been said by cottonmouth and others the demonisation of paedophilia probably causes more harm than good. Its probably one reason while some paedophiles end up raping and abusing children rather than sitting in their rooms looking longingly at children. Paedophiles at the moment have no support from anyone- they are just immediately regarded as evil people, and I think that attitude is very wrong. The paedophiles out there who recognise that they can never touch a child are good people not evil people- and they should be helped by the law rather than forced to withdraw from society. Imagine in today's world being an "out celibate paedophile" and informing people of this. Imagine their reaction. That reaction is whats wrong with peoples attitudes to paedophilia at the moment.


I am against demonising paedophiles, and in most cases, I disagree with prison sentences handed down to pedophiles because I don't believe that it solves anything. We should support pedophiles, and create an environment where both they and we are more safe.

However, you must understand sexual urges are very powerful, and to a certain extent, it is understandable that society is afraid of pedophiles. Child abuse destroys lives. I am against reactionary, stigmatizing societal and individual behaviour, but while I accept that we should be more understanding of pedophiles, we should not legitimacy the instincts. I think the best way forward would be for researchers to look into this very controversial area, and to bring about a better understanding of pedophilic desires and urges.
Reply 38
Some people out there feel strong sexual attraction to children. As long as they never NEVER act on that attraction, there isn't a problem
Elmo_321
I think sexual orientiation perfectly describes paedophilia- yes paedophilia has negative consequences when acted upon (which is doesn't have to be), but that doesn't deny the fact that its a relatively widespread, conscious desire, even love that cannot be altered and is not a choice. Whats the difference between finding young people attractive or finding men/women attractive? A rape fetish is more of a choice, and can be changed. Also its not directed at a group of people, the definition of orientation, but just is one sexual practice which someone happens to enjoy. Its completely different.

Therefore, I think paedophilia should have more legitimacy.. As has been said by cottonmouth and others the demonisation of paedophilia probably causes more harm than good. Its probably one reason while some paedophiles end up raping and abusing children rather than sitting in their rooms looking longingly at children. Paedophiles at the moment have no support from anyone- they are just immediately regarded as evil people, and I think that attitude is very wrong. The paedophiles out there who recognise that they can never touch a child are good people not evil people- and they should be helped by the law rather than forced to withdraw from society. Imagine in today's world being an "out celibate paedophile" and informing people of this. Imagine their reaction. That reaction is whats wrong with peoples attitudes to paedophilia at the moment.


hmm i had this debate years back with my anthropologist ex gf.
my remarks to this are as follows
1) alot of people talk of consent. stupid argument really. because consent is subjective. we have decided a 12 year old cant consent but a 13 yo can. its a legal argument. what about a really intelligent 12 yo? what about a really stupid 16yo?
consent is legally defined, and is much harder to prove or disprove in the psych sense.
2) i can and will compare with homosexuality. it was illegal. now it isnt it was age of consent 18. now its 16. why is that? well, its all changing attitudes isn't it. in some areas of the world there are different attitudes to ages of consent etc. in mexico i believe its as low as 12yo.

in my opinion they should make a split in the term paedophilia to get rid of the key argument - nature.
old enough to bleed, old enough to breed. there is some validity in this argument. hence why there should be a clearly defined split in having sex with someone under the age of consent, having sex with someone who hasn't reached puberty.

if my arguments seem garbled, its because they are. paedophilia means different things to different people. the bnpers out there love to say mohammed was a paedo because he married a 12yo (which baring in mind the change in age of puberty probably relates toa modern day 7/8 yo)


so yes, paedophiliacould possibly simply be another form of sexual orientation/preference in some cases. but i think you should bare in mind that rape isn't about sex, but about power. and many cases of paedo are probably along this lines too.

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