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Nobel winner Stiglitz(and more) on the Euro watch

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    So much for economic experts and having the debate won Remain.

    http://www.colectivoburbuja.org/juan...breakup-recap/
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos...dismal-failure
    https://www.creditwritedowns.com/201...bt-crisis.html
    https://www.project-syndicate.org/co...iglitz-2016-07
    https://www.rt.com/uk/334409-brexit-ttip-stiglitz-eu/

    See, we're not all knuckle draggers Remain. There are informed intelligent arguments....do you want to listen?
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    I'm sure the 'economic experts claim doom for Brexit' threads got more response.

    People don't like an alternative argument? Remainers want to pretend they don't exist.
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    I thought Britain had had enough of experts?
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    Stiglitz supports Brexit for almost completely different reasons to the UKIP and Tory Brexiters. Stiglitz is a clear leftie - he's been an occasional Corbyn adviser - and primarily criticises the EU on grounds of neoliberal economics. He favours a version of the Greens' basic income policy, for example.

    To clarify, I'm not a Remainer, and I like Stiglitz, but it's a bit disingenuous to clutch at ideas which, on the whole, the pro-Brexit campaign and its advocates were at best not about and at worst actually opposed to.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I thought Britain had had enough of experts?
    When they all came from establishment and represented vested interests. All I'm doing is trying to add some balance against the propaganda tide.

    the EU supporter on the other thread told me 99.9% of 'expert' believed in the indispensability of the EU. Doesn't that make you remotely curious, when one of the 0.1% is and independent nobel winner with no financial interests either way?

    You don't think a whole political, media and not to mention megabank and corporate(who lobby the EU to obliterate competition) establishment could be influencing these verdicts at all? Doesn't 99.9% sound like free thinking independent democracy to you? The figure is odd in itself. I think remain are being highly biased, and either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant on this.

    This is why people are so frustrated, they are continually ignored, political classed and the media stitch everything up and then try and tell us all what we think or should think endlessly. Swathes of so-called progressives argue in favour of the (maximum)1% who control information and money and power, as though it could only ever be god given, objective truth rather than verdicts influenced by the powerful to keep consolidating their power and wealth and having everyone else live worse lives. When people live in this oppressive climate, this sort of ideological dictatorship, this authoritarian tendency that history is over, economic arguments and sovereignty arguments are over and only rebelled against by cave dwellers, they, who are often nothing like as dumb as many on the side of the status quo think. are naturally suspicious, as any free thought and liberty lover would be, and they vote against this mental prison of the status quo. That is healthy and democratic, which of course is why they are treated with utter contempt by all the apparatchiks and they 'end of dissent', totalitarian brigade.

    72% turn out vote for something at 52% that 75% of MP's don't believe in, and the parliament insists on treating it with contempt, while the 'progressives support megabanks and corporates and their monopolies in opposing it.
    The Labour party records record democratic engagement and sign ups, and people giving them money, so the MP's decide they hate the candidate just because he's left wing and he's electoral poison. Why would they be right, no-one understood what happened to the Labour vote in Brexit, or how it would go?

    Both paradigms show how the political consensus of 20years has relied on apathy and disgust, and that when real democracy happens, that gives people any stake in their lives and any honest deal to voe for, something to believe in, the establishment hate it. They actively hate the democratic principle, so who are the uncivlized, knuckle dragging regressives?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Stiglitz supports Brexit for almost completely different reasons to the UKIP and Tory Brexiters. Stiglitz is a clear leftie - he's been an occasional Corbyn adviser - and primarily criticises the EU on grounds of neoliberal economics. He favours a version of the Greens' basic income policy, for example.

    To clarify, I'm not a Remainer, and I like Stiglitz, but it's a bit disingenuous to clutch at ideas which, on the whole, the pro-Brexit campaign and its advocates were at best not about and at worst actually opposed to.

    Exactly, so they didn't want to cover people who didn't support a simplified narrative.
    I don't think it's disingenuous at all. I think it's precisely the point. Different reasons for leaving from different types of people with different philosophies should be displayed, it's exactly the point in an issue that transcends left and right. This what what the BBC refused to do, in a biased way. So we never got Stiglitz,(the economics of leave are utterly cretinous) or Tari Ali(ethnic minorities all support remain and Brexit is racist)

    Your point seems rather contorted and illogical, no offence, it's like saying the only people allowed to comment in the media and influence voters on a cross- political spectrum issue should be an official campaign, so we can lump together the reasons as all the same.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    When they all came from establishment and represented vested interests. All I'm doing is trying to add some balance against the propaganda tide.

    the EU supporter on the other thread told me 99.9% of 'expert' believed in the indispensability of the EU. Doesn't that make you remotely curious, when one of the 0.1% is and independent nobel winner with no financial interests either way?

    You don't think a whole political, media and not to mention megabank and corporate(who lobby the EU to obliterate competition) establishment could be influencing these verdicts at all? Doesn't 99.9% sound like free thinking independent democracy to you? The figure is odd in itself. I think remain are being highly biased, and either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant on this.

    This is why people are so frustrated, they are continually ignored, political classed and the media stitch everything up and then try and tell us all what we think or should think endlessly. Swathes of so-called progressives argue in favour of the (maximum)1% who control information and money and power, as though it could only ever be god given, objective truth rather than verdicts influenced by the powerful to keep consolidating their power and wealth and having everyone else live worse lives. When people live in this oppressive climate, this sort of ideological dictatorship, this authoritarian tendency that history is over, economic arguments and sovereignty arguments are over and only rebelled against by cave dwellers, they, who are often nothing like as dumb as many on the side of the status quo think. are naturally suspicious, as any free thought and liberty lover would be, and they vote against this mental prison of the status quo. That is healthy and democratic, which of course is why they are treated with utter contempt by all the apparatchiks and they 'end of dissent', totalitarian brigade.

    72% turn out vote for something at 52% that 75% of MP's don't believe in, and the parliament insists on treating it with contempt, while the 'progressives support megabanks and corporates and their monopolies in opposing it.
    The Labour party records record democratic engagement and sign ups, and people giving them money, so the MP's decide they hate the candidate just because he's left wing and he's electoral poison. Why would they be right, no-one understood what happened to the Labour vote in Brexit, or how it would go?

    Both paradigms show how the political consensus of 20years has relied on apathy and disgust, and that when real democracy happens, that gives people any stake in their lives and any honest deal to voe for, something to believe in, the establishment hate it. They actively hate the democratic principle, so who are the uncivlized, knuckle dragging regressives?
    So we shouldn't trust experts unless they agree with your viewpoint?


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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So we shouldn't trust experts unless they agree with your viewpoint?


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    Oh, this is boring. You just ignore everything I argue and repeat the same thing endlessly. I am trying to put 1 person;s opinion into the debate, to counteract the total democratic obliteration by the BBC of 99.9%, which sounds nothing like any objective debate or issue, and is clearly driven by vested interests. The people who are already closed minded and have decided the other side are all racist and stupid, will not extend their curiosity to any piece of information outside their usual sources, that comes from a different motive. It's like living in some propagandist regime. It's so one-sided and dishonest to just blanket refuse to accept any bias towards the status quo, to accept that the EU could, via funding and legislation policy, influence powerful opinion formers in their direction. To refuse to accept vested financial interest in influencing opinion. They do it at every single General election in UK politics, so how can the people on the left who acknowledge that within our politics, totally deny it's role in the EU debater? Solely because they are sold on it, bizarrely as a leftist or progressive(anti-Try?) cause. Remain myopia, on the part of people who call themselves genuinely open minded and progressive, is just depressing.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, this is boring. You just ignore everything I argue and repeat the same thing endlessly. I am trying to put 1 person;s opinion into the debate, to counteract the total democratic obliteration by the BBC of 99.9%, which sounds nothing like any objective debate or issue, and is clearly driven by vested interests. The people who are already closed minded and have decided the other side are all racist and stupid, will not extend their curiosity to any piece of information outside their usual sources, that comes from a different motive. It's like living in some propagandist regime. It's so one-sided and dishonest to just blanket refuse to accept any bias towards the status quo, to accept that the EU could, via funding and legislation policy, influence powerful opinion formers in their direction. To refuse to accept vested financial interest in influencing opinion. They do it at every single General election in UK politics, so how can the people on the left who acknowledge that within our politics, totally deny it's role in the EU debater? Solely because they are sold on it, bizarrely as a leftist or progressive(anti-Try?) cause. Remain myopia, on the part of people who call themselves genuinely open minded and progressive, is just depressing.
    You're being wildly inconsistent. Whenever any expert came out against Brexit you accused them of being an establishment figure who couldn't be trusted. So much so that the leader of your campaign said 'Britain has had enough of experts'


    Yet when an expert comes along that agrees with you, suddenly we like experts again?

    You voted against the EU for anti-capitalist, left wing reasons. We now have the most right wing, neoliberal government hell bent on privatizing the NHS and other public services. We also have a labour party about to disintegrate.

    So do tell me when all your economic leftist post-Brexit fantasies are going to happen? Is Boris Johnson, the great neoliberal going to deliver the economic leftism you want? Is Liam Fox?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You're being wildly inconsistent. Whenever any expert came out against Brexit you accused them of being an establishment figure who couldn't be trusted. So much so that the leader of your campaign said 'Britain has had enough of experts'


    Yet when an expert comes along that agrees with you, suddenly we like experts again?

    You voted against the EU for anti-capitalist, left wing reasons. We now have the most right wing, neoliberal government hell bent on privatizing the NHS and other public services. We also have a labour party about to disintegrate.

    So do tell me when all your economic leftist post-Brexit fantasies are going to happen? Is Boris Johnson, the great neoliberal going to deliver the economic leftism you want? Is Liam Fox?
    Right, I will tell you this one more time and then that's it. I really think the endless repetition is some sort of denial or PTSD, I'm not being patronising, I'm serious. Neoliberalism happened for 40 yrs within the EU. I am well aware there are neoliberals in non-EU countries and in British politicians outside the EU too. I voted, not on the basis of the next 3 years, but on the basis of the entire future of our democracy.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Right, I will tell you this one more time and then that's it. I really think the endless repetition is some sort of denial or PTSD, I'm not being patronising, I'm serious. Neoliberalism happened for 40 yrs within the EU. I am well aware there are neoliberals in non-EU countries and in British politicians outside the EU too. I voted, not on the basis of the next 3 years, but on the basis of the entire future of our democracy.
    You were willing to link arms with very right wing Thatcherite neoliberals who despise economic leftism.

    So after three years will we get an economically leftist government? Right now on current polling there would be a conservative landslide. We haven't had a genuinely economic leftist government since the 1970s and now you think we're out the EU that we will get one?

    Yes parts of the EU were neoliberal, many other parts were not. But all our governments for over 40 years have been more neoliberal than the EU.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You were willing to link arms with very right wing Thatcherite neoliberals who despise economic leftism.

    So after three years will we get an economically leftist government? Right now on current polling there would be a conservative landslide. We haven't had a genuinely economic leftist government since the 1970s and now you think we're out the EU that we will get one?

    Yes parts of the EU were neoliberal, many other parts were not. But all our governments for over 40 years have been more neoliberal than the EU.
    Untrue. I linked arms with no-one. I voted to be an independent nation, something that by it's very nature many remainers despise, misconstrue and deliberately misrepresent.

    There were neoliberals all over remain too, what's your point? It has nothing to do with anything, as I have gone over endlessly, this is a long term self-determination issue.

    Did I say that? No, so don't put words into my mouth. As though it could only ever make sense to leave the EU if we get a left Labour government in 3 years, even though we were never going to get one by preserving the status quo anyhow, and even though the EU is oppressive and stifling.

    Neoliberalism, and the globalism you seem to support, is dying on it's feet. Why do you think so many US voters badly want protectionism, in the guise of Sanders or Trump? The support for Hillary is another establishment and media misunderstanding, and misrepresentation of the electorate. In fact in getting rid of Sanders, just as Labour are trying to get rid of Corbyn, they have paved the way for Trump..he is a protectionist. In the same way Corbyn's chance of election, especially if the EU dies by 2020, is vastly higher than establishment admits. They were wrong about Brexit, and they are still out of touch with the mood.
    All the aforementioned three things can genuinely happen now, I really believe this, because revolutionary periods are cyclical.

    I think you are underestimating the value of Brexit in rocking establishment and breaking the status quo. I think people are underestimating what it can precipitate in terms of new options and how much this could be revolutionary period.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Untrue. I linked arms with no-one. I voted to be an independent nation, something that by it's very nature many remainers despise, misconstrue and deliberately misrepresent.

    There were neoliberals all over remain too, what's your point? It has nothing to do with anything, as I have gone over endlessly, this is a long term self-determination issue.

    Did I say that? No, so don't put words into my mouth. As though it could only ever make sense to leave the EU if we get a left Labour government in 3 years, even though we were never going to get one by preserving the status quo anyhow, and even though the EU is oppressive and stifling.

    Neoliberalism, and the globalism you seem to support, is dying on it's feet. Why do you think so many US voters badly want protectionism, in the guise of Sanders or Trump? The support for Hillary is another establishment and media misunderstanding, and misrepresentation of the electorate. In fact in getting rid of Sanders, just as Labour are trying to get rid of Corbyn, they have paved the way for Trump..he is a protectionist. In the same way Corbyn's chance of election, especially if the EU dies by 2020, is vastly higher than establishment admits. They were wrong about Brexit, and they are still out of touch with the mood.
    All the aforementioned three things can genuinely happen now, I really believe this, because revolutionary periods are cyclical.

    I think you are underestimating the value of Brexit in rocking establishment and breaking the status quo. I think people are underestimating what it can precipitate in terms of new options and how much this could be revolutionary period.
    My point is that you wanted to leave the EU for economic leftist reasons despite the fact that in all likeliness we will have a right wing neoliberal government, as we have had for the last 40 years.

    Trump is not a protectionist, he's a corporate billionaire who's benefited massively from employing illegal immigrants, low paid workers and making use of cheap foreign labour...

    If neoliberalism is dying then why is the current government polling about 10-20% higher than Labour?

    If I felt that leaving the EU would have lead to a leftist revolution, I would have voted for it. But all it will lead to is more power for an increasingly right wing, neoliberal government.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If neoliberalism is dying then why is the current government polling about 10-20% higher than Labour?
    .
    I didn't actually. I voted for self-determination, liberty and democracy, principally, this ties in with long term economic independence which can only be good. Whatever the short termist arguments are , I don't care- they are fear based, blackmaling, authoritarian and rely on people who think the status quo is great.

    Because polling is often inaccurate(and even biased), because the Blairites are all trying to sabotage their own party leader to prove a point, and talk their own leader down, because they are all neoliberals, funnily, and this is all done with the connivance of the anti-Corbyn, globalist Blairite media. No-one will vote for hat chaos and divisin which they create out of their own bitterness that in reality, the public mood has turned against them. (I believe it's a duty to stand up to them and back him for the sake of democracy and shaking them up now)And finally, because such huge numbers of people wanted Brexit, and they are definitely not going to vote for a party n disarray associated with ignoring all those voters for decades and wanting second referendums. Like me, many voters are not interested in party politics right now, as much as securing Brexit.
    I wouldn't vote for a Blairite New Labour remainer talking about second referendums and trying to sabotage the Labour left and not interested in genuinely representing the economic left and going back to the EU. And neither are so many people. That's where Labour establishment are so wrong to oppose their members and think their MP's know what the electorate want. It is risible to see them contorted in this delusion and still so blind to whats going on, all these people stuck in '97.
    Do you think if a NuLab style remainer who wanted us in the EU opposed Theresa May and her Brexit cabinet, the electorate would all go for it, especially if the EU starts crumbling? There is no way there would be any more support for that than Corbyn who everyone knows really wanted Brexit, as do much of the old left vote.

    This is not a business as usual cycle with a meaningless random aberration, there is something really going on here, that they, the opinion' formers' still deny and underestimate. People will not believe what they are told and are voting with their own conscience. Corbyn has stood up to this tide, and more and more people are buoyed to support him. 4 years is a long time. He could at the least mean new political parties are created, which would be a good job in itself.
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    Ok edited
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I didn't actually. I voted for self-determination, liberty and democracy, principally, this ties in with long term economic independence which can only be good. Whatever the short termist arguments are , I don't care- they are fear based, blackmaling, authoritarian and rely on people who think the status quo is great.

    Because polling is often inaccurate(and even biased), because the Blairites are all trying to sabotage their own party leader to prove a point, and talk their own leader down, because they are all neoliberals, funnily, and this is all done with the connivance of the anti-Corbyn, globalist Blairite media. No-one will vote for hat chaos and divisin which they create out of their own bitterness that in reality, the public mood has turned against them. (I believe it's a duty to stand up to them and back him for the sake of democracy and shaking them up now)And finally, because such huge numbers of people wanted Brexit, and they are definitely not going to vote for a party n disarray associated with ignoring all those voters for decades and wanting second referendums. Like me, many voters are not interested in party politics right now, as much as securing Brexit.
    I wouldn't vote for a Blairite New Labour remainer talking about second referendums and trying to sabotage the Labour left and not interested in genuinely representing the economic left and going back to the EU. And neither are so many people. That's where Labour establishment are so wrong to oppose their members and think their MP's know what the electorate want. It is risible to see them contorted in this delusion and still so blind to whats going on, all these people stuck in '97.
    Do you think if a NuLab style remainer who wanted us in the EU opposed Theresa May and her Brexit cabinet, the electorate would all go for it, especially if the EU starts crumbling? There is no way there would be any more support for that than Corbyn who everyone knows really wanted Brexit, as do much of the old left vote.

    This is not a business as usual cycle with a meaningless random aberration, there is something really going on here, that they, the opinion' formers' still deny and underestimate. People will not believe what they are told and are voting with their own conscience. Corbyn has stood up to this tide, and more and more people are buoyed to support him. 4 years is a long time. He could at the least mean new political parties are created, which would be a good job in itself.

    In many ways I am passionate about the things you are. I want greater democracy, I want more economic protectionism, I dislike neoliberalism and the establishment.

    The difference between us is that I didn't see leaving the EU as a way to achieve these things. The focus on blaming the EU for our problems took the blame away from the conservatives and other neoliberals.
 
 
 
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