Why does God allow so much suffering?
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Original post by da_nolo
What do you mean by "state?"
Like land/property or a state of being?
Like land/property or a state of being?
State= state of being
Original post by da_nolo
here's the trick. if God doesn't exist (or the like there of) your suffering is okay. it is here, you deal with it. bad things happen. you blame humans.
if God does exist. you shift the blame to God for bad humans as he made the universe in a way you don't like.
God exists or doesn't - your world comes to be the same except for afterlife. where does this blame come from?
if God does exist. you shift the blame to God for bad humans as he made the universe in a way you don't like.
God exists or doesn't - your world comes to be the same except for afterlife. where does this blame come from?
Much like my suggestion that suffering is perhaps a man made concept that is possibly rooted in jealousy and sympathy/empathy, blame, as many consider it to be, is a defence mechanism, in which case, we in denial of the suffering we perceive, cannot deal with, understand, or solve it as individuals, and so find reason for it to exist, such as suggesting it to be by design, or the result of people indeed behaving in a way we do not approve of....
For the sake of the OP, my argument is that if Gods are these omni-benevolent, omnipotent beings, why should they lack the same basic compassion, clearly evident in at least enough humans for a negative stance on suffering to exist, to use their clear power to have enforced a failsafe or counter-action to respond to unjust suffering? or perhaps that's just it - humans will never have solid proof of the Gods' existence, and as such, despite grandiose depictions, we can never paint them as these perfect beings, as we can't even count on them to support their creation. This would then make sense of the argument that they 'cannot intervene', as even the faithful are not entirely sure that they can count on these Gods - they describe in very human terms, in the sense that they won't help despite their potential to, and maybe we created a universal scapegoat (that we also act as an apologist for), because we cannot deal with the way that people behave, and the fear that we could do something about it.
Why is this world so corrupt ?
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Original post by Think People
Seven Deadly Sins and mans acceptance to them
Original post by Marciaaaaa
God does not allow suffering
Yes God may present certain circumstances to test your faith in him when you are growing closer to him but he Will never place you in a Situation you can not overcome.....
An example of God testing faith in the bible is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.
God gave humans free will, . But it is unjustified to blame God for suffering. As Humans, we allow suffering as some of us choose to abuse our free will. With your free will you can choose whether to obey God or to disobey
God tells us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isaiah 48:18
GOD IS ALL powerful but he does not use his power to FORCE you to do anything. You are in control of your heart and your mind.
God is a patient and loving God , there are so many words to describe him!
Psalms 103:8
"The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadf
People are happy to blame God for certain circumstances but never want to blame the devil?
God loves us SOOO much and how do we know this? Because through Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for ur sins, we can be transformed, we can be saved from sin etc..the list goes on!
but the devil hates us.
Why does the devil hate us?
The devil does not want you to have salivation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He wants you to perish with him in the end. He will use any opportunity to deceive you. Having no prayer in your life makes you vulnerable to his attacks as you have no protection from God/Jesus as you have no faith.
1 peter 5:8
"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
The devil doesn't have to attack you in obvious way. He can use demons to give you illness, (this is why we have illness that can not be explained by science) , difficult financial circumstances, conflict, addictions etc..the list goes on
If you do not have a relationship with God you cannot see the difference between opportunities that God lays out for you and the opportunities the devil presents you with.
God has great and wonderful plans for each persons life but the devil will do anything to prevent you fulfilling this
The devil does not have to appear as a big red scary thing. He is logical, and he can easily deceive you through anything that may seem good. Do not underestimate him.
God does not hate us if we sin.
God hates sin but he loves the sinner.
God does not expect you to be perfect, because you can't be completely free of sin, as we are human.
Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
Over abundance of sin does not bring anything positive to your life , it can only bring you problems
God has great and wonderful plans for each persons life but the devil will do anything to prevent you fulfilling this
The devil does not have to appear as a big red scary thing that torments you in the middle of the night. He is logical, and he can easily deceive you through anything that may seem good. Do not underestimate him. The devil wants you to fear him or to believe he does not exist. That is why he will come into your life with things that do not appear bad.
If you ask God to open your eyes and your Heart, he will. Matthew 7:7
""Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you."
You have a void in your heart that can only be filled the love of Jesus. Without Jesus/God , you will search for other things to fill that void. But theyll never will .
One more thing , it is not " the devil vs God"
It is just God. God rules over everything . Therefore with God on your side, you have every reason NOT to fear the devil or any obstacle in your life that is "impossible "
Deuteronomy 31:6
"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you."
Yes God may present certain circumstances to test your faith in him when you are growing closer to him but he Will never place you in a Situation you can not overcome.....
An example of God testing faith in the bible is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.
God gave humans free will, . But it is unjustified to blame God for suffering. As Humans, we allow suffering as some of us choose to abuse our free will. With your free will you can choose whether to obey God or to disobey
God tells us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isaiah 48:18
GOD IS ALL powerful but he does not use his power to FORCE you to do anything. You are in control of your heart and your mind.
God is a patient and loving God , there are so many words to describe him!
Psalms 103:8
"The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadf
People are happy to blame God for certain circumstances but never want to blame the devil?
God loves us SOOO much and how do we know this? Because through Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for ur sins, we can be transformed, we can be saved from sin etc..the list goes on!
but the devil hates us.
Why does the devil hate us?
The devil does not want you to have salivation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He wants you to perish with him in the end. He will use any opportunity to deceive you. Having no prayer in your life makes you vulnerable to his attacks as you have no protection from God/Jesus as you have no faith.
1 peter 5:8
"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
The devil doesn't have to attack you in obvious way. He can use demons to give you illness, (this is why we have illness that can not be explained by science) , difficult financial circumstances, conflict, addictions etc..the list goes on
If you do not have a relationship with God you cannot see the difference between opportunities that God lays out for you and the opportunities the devil presents you with.
God has great and wonderful plans for each persons life but the devil will do anything to prevent you fulfilling this
The devil does not have to appear as a big red scary thing. He is logical, and he can easily deceive you through anything that may seem good. Do not underestimate him.
God does not hate us if we sin.
God hates sin but he loves the sinner.
God does not expect you to be perfect, because you can't be completely free of sin, as we are human.
Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
Over abundance of sin does not bring anything positive to your life , it can only bring you problems
God has great and wonderful plans for each persons life but the devil will do anything to prevent you fulfilling this
The devil does not have to appear as a big red scary thing that torments you in the middle of the night. He is logical, and he can easily deceive you through anything that may seem good. Do not underestimate him. The devil wants you to fear him or to believe he does not exist. That is why he will come into your life with things that do not appear bad.
If you ask God to open your eyes and your Heart, he will. Matthew 7:7
""Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you."
You have a void in your heart that can only be filled the love of Jesus. Without Jesus/God , you will search for other things to fill that void. But theyll never will .
One more thing , it is not " the devil vs God"
It is just God. God rules over everything . Therefore with God on your side, you have every reason NOT to fear the devil or any obstacle in your life that is "impossible "
Deuteronomy 31:6
"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you."
Amen !🙌🏿
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Original post by RobML
If you suggest suffering exists because we have the choice to act bad, but those choices were predetermined by God, then you're back to square one again.
And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.
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And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Knowing what someone will choose to do or actually do is not the same as determining what they will do and then intervening in their lives to make sure it is accomplished.
Original post by ZoëC
Much like my suggestion that suffering is perhaps a man made concept that is possibly rooted in jealousy and sympathy/empathy, blame, as many consider it to be, is a defence mechanism, in which case, we in denial of the suffering we perceive, cannot deal with, understand, or solve it as individuals, and so find reason for it to exist, such as suggesting it to be by design, or the result of people indeed behaving in a way we do not approve of....
For the sake of the OP, my argument is that if Gods are these omni-benevolent, omnipotent beings, why should they lack the same basic compassion, clearly evident in at least enough humans for a negative stance on suffering to exist, to use their clear power to have enforced a failsafe or counter-action to respond to unjust suffering? or perhaps that's just it - humans will never have solid proof of the Gods' existence, and as such, despite grandiose depictions, we can never paint them as these perfect beings, as we can't even count on them to support their creation. This would then make sense of the argument that they 'cannot intervene', as even the faithful are not entirely sure that they can count on these Gods - they describe in very human terms, in the sense that they won't help despite their potential to, and maybe we created a universal scapegoat (that we also act as an apologist for), because we cannot deal with the way that people behave, and the fear that we could do something about it.
For the sake of the OP, my argument is that if Gods are these omni-benevolent, omnipotent beings, why should they lack the same basic compassion, clearly evident in at least enough humans for a negative stance on suffering to exist, to use their clear power to have enforced a failsafe or counter-action to respond to unjust suffering? or perhaps that's just it - humans will never have solid proof of the Gods' existence, and as such, despite grandiose depictions, we can never paint them as these perfect beings, as we can't even count on them to support their creation. This would then make sense of the argument that they 'cannot intervene', as even the faithful are not entirely sure that they can count on these Gods - they describe in very human terms, in the sense that they won't help despite their potential to, and maybe we created a universal scapegoat (that we also act as an apologist for), because we cannot deal with the way that people behave, and the fear that we could do something about it.
Who said mankind was entitled to any existance other than suffering? where does the concept come from that says man should live a life free from suffering? After a few thousand yrs. of immense suffering we still insist that the goal is a world free from suffering. What is it that keeps that goal as the ultimate prize for man despite what would appear to be the reality of our existance?
If all we experienced was good fortune, there'd be no bad to make us value the good. If there was always good, that'd re-write the laws of nature and God would have no way of demonstrating his power. If God couldn't demonstrate his power, we wouldn't have reason to worship him because we wouldn't know the bad he could make us experience.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
Original post by Durhamgirl96
If all we experienced was good fortune, there'd be no bad to make us value the good. If there was always good, that'd re-write the laws of nature and God would have no way of demonstrating his power. If God couldn't demonstrate his power, we wouldn't have reason to worship him because we wouldn't know the bad he could make us experience.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
God is meant to be omnipotent, that bolded bit doesn't make sense.
As to the rest, just having power isn't a reason to be worshipped. Unless you subscribe to a 'might makes right' philosophy.
Original post by davidguettafan
this world is a test and is temporary. If this world was just sunshine and rainbows then whats the point of heaven.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Marciaaaaa
People are happy to blame God for certain circumstances but never want to blame the devil?
People are happy to blame God for certain circumstances but never want to blame the devil?
Who killed more, Satan or God - LINK
In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No attempt was made to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, 2 million is a respectable number even for world class killers.
But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible? Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.
But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible? Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.
Original post by davidguettafan
Me as a Muslim would take it as a test from God and it just feels like suffering but its actually not
Original post by yankeedog1953
Knowing what someone will choose to do or actually do is not the same as determining what they will do and then intervening in their lives to make sure it is accomplished.
Infallible omniscience means that specific actions, events and outcomes are inevitable. They are fixed and no other outcome is possible. The subject no longer has control over the outcome. Therefore, to all intents and purposes, the infallible omniscient has interfered in the lives of the subject simply by knowing. The fact that they infallibly know that some event will happen means that they have determined that it will happen.
Original post by Shumaya
lol so people suffer so that God can test people. God knows everything so he knows who'll pass the test before the test takes place and the people who fail the test end up in hell for failing a test that God knew they'd fail before they were even born
makes sense
makes sense
yeh but its about the person and their life experiences, forget about what God knows, its a test for every individual
Original post by Durhamgirl96
If all we experienced was good fortune, there'd be no bad to make us value the good. If there was always good, that'd re-write the laws of nature and God would have no way of demonstrating his power. If God couldn't demonstrate his power, we wouldn't have reason to worship him because we wouldn't know the bad he could make us experience.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
Does that make sense? We have to have bad so God can demonstrate acts of goodwill by giving us good fortune.
Why does he need to be worshipped?
What does he gain from it?
What would we lose from not worshipping him?
If god kills all the millions of children dying every year from natural events just so that we can worship him, then god needs to have a long, hard look at himself. We would be better off without him.
Original post by assassinbunny123
this world is a test and is temporary.
If this world was just sunshine and rainbows then whats the point of heaven.
The only way we can alter the outcomes within our own lives is if god is not infallibly omniscient. And as the Abrahamic god is infallibly omniscient, then we are incapable of changing that ultimate outcome.
For us to genuinely be able to choose between A and B, god cannot infallibly know which we will choose. And if he doesn't know this, he is not god!
QED.
Original post by l_robinson
I don't know if I believe in a God, but I believe that suffering exists either to test us, or to teach us things. A lot of negative experiences teach us some valuable lessons, or at least give us something to look back at & laugh at in hindsight. Suffering is subjective anyways 
What "valuable lesson" does dying alone from hypothermia teach a pensioner whose life savings have been lost in a financial scam?
Does a brother "look back and laugh" at his sister dying painfully from bone cancer?
Seriously, you should think these offensive platitudes through before posting them.
Original post by Rauhan
Me as a Muslim would take it as a test from God and it just feels like suffering but its actually not
Also, as Allah is infallibly omniscient, and nothing happens without his will and permission, we can't do anything that he doesn't already know will definitely happen. Therefore, whatever he knows will happen is inevitable - we cannot change it.
The "heaven or hell" argument doesn't work either because he already knows where we are going, so any "test" is meaningless. It is just cruel and unjust.
And why do you think that Allah always "tests" poor, religious people in developing countries much more than he tests well-off, religious people in the west? Surely it is the people with an easy life that need more testing. The pious Muslim subsistence farmer in Somalia or the goat herder in the Afghan mountains are being tested enough just trying to feed their family without Allah further "testing" him with children dying from preventable disease or natural disaster.
Please try and think these arguments through. It is distasteful to simply dismiss the death of millions of children as a deliberate and avoidable act by a "just and merciful" god.
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