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'Eurabia', and in the UK too if it rejects conservatism watch

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    How do you few the probability of a transformation of Europe from within, into an Islamic continent? I personally feel this a very real possibility. I am not an islamphobe, before the outrage mongers say anything, but personally I feel there will be many moderate muslims and ones from differing sects who will suffer and live in misery if something authoritarian, and profoundly opposed to the west took hold.

    I really feel Europe is hapless right now on this, and the 'democratic deficit' being caused by Europe's arrogant, out of touch leaders is making populaces seeth and turn to left and right extremes and polarization. Europe would be better of as sovereign countries with a genuine sense of the national interests and a re configuration of political priorities. There are signs this could be happening, but I still feel that the UK has better prospects to avoid this than many in Europe. But, this is heavily, massively dependent on one condition; that it ceases it's total rejection and misunderstanding of genuine conservatism, and finds a political force that resurrects it.

    I do not mean 'Toffs' or the meaningless tribal identity of the Tory party, and the problematic opposition that causes by it's nature. I mean the original meaning of the word as it exists globally. The idea of conserving what is precious in order to facilitate cohesion and not jeopardize what diversity and tolerance you have. The way some on the cultural left speak, you would think we are somewhere near Iceland, with an inbred population desperately in need of massive rates of our mixture, culturally before we die genetically and civilizationally. This is patently untrue and absurd. What I find doubly bizarre about this position is that the levels of immigration they advocate facilitate less integration and race mixing, not more. And, most oddly, the people most gung-ho, seem to like to admire 'diversity' from an abstracted distance and pat themselves on the back for how much they like more and more immigration.

    It is these types I've seen in the referendum being shrill and calling people bigots. I actually saw this directed towards Tony Parsons, a leave voter- "Ah, the old 'married an immigrant' line', desperate now(or we've heard it all now)" words to that effect. Err, he did marry an immigrant(A Japanese woman), and has a legitimate right to raise this point against the smears.

    This is a rather good example of what I'm talking about. The distinction(highlighted to me, beyond the broadcast media portrayal, in the EU vote) between two distinct subsets of people, evident beyond the other dichotomies going on.

    One group who are embracing of diversity on a level they don't use politically and are not shrill or loud about, who also have an understanding of and regard for conservative concepts like sovereignty, continuity, and limits on immigration. And, another group of dogmatic, divisive moral zealots who politicize everything, and love policies from an abstract perspective, (not to mention and opportunistic and power hungry one) without in reality living right within or experiencing all the effects. They are low empathy in my view and shallow, and often representative of the denatured detachment that politicians live in. We see this encapsulated in the types who would probably never marry another ethnicity lecturing someone who has, on the bigotry of his position.

    There are many immigrants and descendants of immigrants who think completely differently, love the UK, and it's flexibility dual identities and want some cultural stability and not to lose our common thread. They have an understanding of both our strength in variety, but the need fro facets of conservatism to preserve the common linkages, often stemming from their own culture(which maybe preserved more sense than we have done of late)

    Anyhow.

    'Eurabia', and/or the loss of identity, including diverse multi-faceted identities, in the UK. I want to discuss it, and I want to discuss the underlying differences between Europe and the UK that affect this, and possible future approaches that are necessary. How should these approaches play out(in your ideal), how will they likely play out(what policies will likely be adopted), and again, how will they and should they(if at all) differ in Europe and the UK?
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    Please stop inventing phrases. "Eurabia" is something the Americans would come up with. Bet they would take out the 'u' as well.
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    Please stop inventing phrases. "Eurabia" is something the Americans would come up with. Bet they would take out the 'u' as well.
    I didn't make it up. The Americans did come up with it, how ghastly of them.
    We shouldn't discuss it because your PC sensibilities are upset, I guess. Stop being so literal minded, it's a term to point to a broader debate going on, amongst the people who still see themselves as living in a free thinking, free speaking world of course.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I didn't make it up. The Americans did come up with it, how ghastly of them.
    We shouldn't discuss it because your PC sensibilities are upset, I guess. Stop being so literal minded, it's a term to point to a broader debate going on, amongst the people who still see themselves as living in a free thinking, free speaking world of course.
    So triggred. Loving the assumption that I'm 'PC'. It's laughable.
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    So triggred. Loving the assumption that I'm 'PC'. It's laughable.
    Ok, well you've had your bit of attention, by coming on a thread to say how you don't want to talk about it.

    Totally pointless and pedantic.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Ok, well you've had your bit of attention, by coming on a thread to say how you don't want to talk about it.

    Totally pointless and pedantic.
    When did I say I didn't want to talk about it? Never said that. I was only complaining about you diluting the English language with useless phrases from America.
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    When did I say I didn't want to talk about it? Never said that. I was only complaining about you diluting the English language with useless phrases from America.
    It's trivial. Why do you keep saying America too, it's not relevant.

    So go ahead, talk if you want to. If you don't, don't, and I don't want to to carry this on and fill the thread with this.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It's trivial. Why do you keep saying America too, it's not relevant.

    So go ahead, talk if you want to. If you don't, don't, and I don't want to to carry this on and fill the thread with this.
    It's not like anyone else is going to talk in this. They've got hundreds of thread to discuss exactly the same thing. It may be trivial, but you keep going on about our culture being diluted, yet you use phrases like that. Seams a bit hypocritical.
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    Oh my god, a phrase that may have originated in the US is the same threat to our culture as a totally conflicting ideology of militant Islamism rife in North Africa and the ME.......

    I've heard it all...
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    Please stop inventing phrases. "Eurabia" is something the Americans would come up with. Bet they would take out the 'u' as well.
    Actually, "Eurabia" is a neologism coined by Bat Ye'or, an Egyptian who later acquired British nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ye%27or

    It was widely popularised, most notably, by Italian journalist and author Oriana Fallaci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriana_Fallaci

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    As an atheist I don't want an Islamic continent or a particularly religious one. But 'conservatism' is a horrid ideology based around nostalgia and the need for the powerful to keep their power at the expense of others. Thus, I would maintain that immigration controls are not a conservative policy if those who support stricter ones also supported radical social change within the nation.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Actually, "Eurabia" is a neologism coined by Bat Ye'or, an Egyptian who later acquired British nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ye%27or

    It was widely popularised, most notably, by Italian journalist and author Oriana Fallaci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriana_Fallaci

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    Oh well I had my run. Still annoyed people, so I've got that going for me.
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    SaucissonSecCy


    I thought you were a Corbynista?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    As an atheist I don't want an Islamic continent or a particularly religious one. But 'conservatism' is a horrid ideology based around nostalgia and the need for the powerful to keep their power at the expense of others. Thus, I would maintain that immigration controls are not a conservative policy if those who support stricter ones also supported radical social change within the nation.
    Yes but looking at immigration control as a single issue, it is clearly a conservative policy especially in terms of the general left/right position of the parties that support it.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    SaucissonSecCy


    I thought you were a Corbynista?
    Well you obviously haven't read my posts very carefully. To many people on here judge everything in some tribal way, and read something with bias from the first word. I'm not a tribalist. (I voted Brexit but don't hate black people, oooh wow!!) I oppose the stupid biased, immoral lying, spinning coverage of Corbyn and the hysteria, and the treatment of him by Labour, and the fact that the media and political classes are not getting what is going on with the electorate, and are actively opposing democracy. The fact that so many Tories also stupidly and irresponsibly collude in wanting an opposition with near exact same policies(and this doesn't go just for Corbyn), an anti-democratic stitch up, as has been the last 20yrs, and how few genuine conservatives there are. Even though I wouldn't vote for some of his policies.

    People can't seem to comprehend your view if you are objective and not part of a tribe.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    As an atheist I don't want an Islamic continent or a particularly religious one. But 'conservatism' is a horrid ideology based around nostalgia and the need for the powerful to keep their power at the expense of others. Thus, I would maintain that immigration controls are not a conservative policy if those who support stricter ones also supported radical social change within the nation.
    I think you have a misperception of it. I wouldn't call Blairism conservative and it has consolidating power of the rich, reduced social mobility, increased inequality, and endangered social cohesion and tolerance by mass immigration.

    Immigration control is not conservative if you a breaking with the globalist norm, I suppose that's true, I was more talking in past terms, are post war levels.

    Conservatism means just that, it gets tied to other things that the British Tory part represent. It simply means caution and conserving something valuable if you have it. Actually old school conservatism would have given more social mobility and less inequality than Blair, and advocated lower rates of immigration which cause more cultural mixing and less retreat into traditionalist enclaves.

    I think I may share some of your politics though...


    if those who support stricter ones also supported radical social change within the nation

    That perfectly describes me, and also my stance on other issues and why I voted 'leave'.Remain was not the progressive choice, it was the one that was solidifying the worst elements we need to change, and not conserving the great things and prospect of directing our own evolution.

    The only thing I'd disagree about, and with many atheists over, even though I kind of am one, is that by wishing into being an irreligious continent in all faiths, you will end up successfully eliminating them, but not Islam, which is determined, and Islam will become dominant. This is why their gung-ho notions of eliminating something so universal, for example in the christian case,m strike me as frivolous and shallow, especially when in a hypocritical and cowardly way they won't attack Islam- do they want that to fill the spiritual space?
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MexfSD94OA

    Marine Le Pen, really like her and the way she calls out the EU and how they stink, there are more videos of her discussing assimilation too. Far more complex than the caricature by the people happy to give way to a militant islamist Europe.
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    (Original post by richpanda)
    Yes but looking at immigration control as a single issue, it is clearly a conservative policy especially in terms of the general left/right position of the parties that support it.
    Look at the economic left and right. Boiled down to it's most simple form:

    Left: More government control of the free market.
    Right: Less government control of the free market.

    Border control is government control of the supply of human capital. It is interventionist. In an absolute free market people would go and work wherever they like. If you believe that foreign workers are depressing wages and you are a 'socialist worker' type then you might advocate restriction of immigration as a market intervention to keep wages high. That's why populist nationalist groups often have economically left-wing views.

    Of course, left-wing ideology is also centred around the idea that it is class rather than nationality/race/sex/etc. that separates people and their interests. Thus, a left-winger may not like the idea of immigration controls even for the purposes of keeping wages up because the idea puts a value on the country's workers over foreign workers - i.e. fellow comrades in the fight against the capitalist oppressors. There will always be national and international socialists.
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    (Original post by THE EPIC Panda)
    Please stop inventing phrases. "Eurabia" is something the Americans would come up with. Bet they would take out the 'u' as well.
    I'd rather be a stupid American than a smug self-righteous European.
 
 
 
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