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PhD and Training Contact...Pub Debate!
Greetings!
I was having a debate with a friend in the pub last night... we were discussing applications for training contracts. My argument was that surely someone with a good (2:1 or first) undergraduate degree, LLM and PhD from a very good uni (Top 10) would have increased potential of gaining a training contract. Or at least the PhD would make up for not having straight As at A-level. My argument is that they would be a specialist in their field, would have excellent research skills and an exceptionally strong academic background....that ticks a great deal of firm's boxes.
For the sake of this argument let us say that they will have relevant work experience etc like other applicants.
What do you think?
Training contract with a top 10 firm or not?
I was having a debate with a friend in the pub last night... we were discussing applications for training contracts. My argument was that surely someone with a good (2:1 or first) undergraduate degree, LLM and PhD from a very good uni (Top 10) would have increased potential of gaining a training contract. Or at least the PhD would make up for not having straight As at A-level. My argument is that they would be a specialist in their field, would have excellent research skills and an exceptionally strong academic background....that ticks a great deal of firm's boxes.
For the sake of this argument let us say that they will have relevant work experience etc like other applicants.
What do you think?
Training contract with a top 10 firm or not?
i think a decent degree in itself can make up for not having straight As at A level.
doing a PhD might not increase the potential of getting a training contract, in terms of having the qualiification on paper, but if you can demonstrate at interview how you're excellent at research along with the other range of skills and personal qualities that you've developed, it could only be good for any application.
that said, there are most certainly thousands of students all around the country who will possess all of the skills and qualities desirable to recruiting firms when in the final stages of their undergraduate degrees. and let's not forget the extra-curricular side of university - if you get a decent degree classification and have enough going on simultaneously (e.g. debating and sports) to help build your character, you could be just what a firm wants without doing any extra qualifications.
in short, doing postgraduate study might impress some employers; but, for most, a solid academic performance and enough extra-curricular stuff to have built your character is quite simply all that is needed to fill the requirements.
doing a PhD might not increase the potential of getting a training contract, in terms of having the qualiification on paper, but if you can demonstrate at interview how you're excellent at research along with the other range of skills and personal qualities that you've developed, it could only be good for any application.
that said, there are most certainly thousands of students all around the country who will possess all of the skills and qualities desirable to recruiting firms when in the final stages of their undergraduate degrees. and let's not forget the extra-curricular side of university - if you get a decent degree classification and have enough going on simultaneously (e.g. debating and sports) to help build your character, you could be just what a firm wants without doing any extra qualifications.
in short, doing postgraduate study might impress some employers; but, for most, a solid academic performance and enough extra-curricular stuff to have built your character is quite simply all that is needed to fill the requirements.
You mean a PhD in Law? PhDs in scientific and technical fields make you very attractive for certain legal firms. One of my colleagues was 'poached' by a leading city law firm very recently.
ChemistBoy
You mean a PhD in Law?
Yeah, I was referring to a PhD in Law.
Ethereal
Will not increase your chances
Any particular reasons?
A number of reasons. Firstly, it makes you a specialist in the thing you wrote your Thesis on, not an area of law. Secondly, it shows you can research and write at a higher level of academia, not of pratical legal research; they are two different skills. Thirdly, if you go the usual route ie LLB, LLM, PhD by time you finish your PhD (if you only take 3 years which a lot of people don't) it will have been 6 years since you studied some of the foundations of legal knowledge - you will be rusty. Also, it can make an employer question if you really want to be a solicitor.
I have been led to believe that a PHD/Dphil will not especially enhance your prospects of becoming a solicitor/barrister and I would imagine it is a lot of hard graft unless you have a passion for your topic- having just done a masters whilst having one eye on my career, I personally would find a PHD an unbearable route. For some people, me anyway, there becomes the day to pursue career/vocational routes.
even towards the end of the second year of my undergraduate degree (i.e. a few months ago), it was impossible to keep one eye off the world of work. trying to read a few novels and the accompanying criticism every week is hard enough to do whilst researching all these firms and commercial law; doing anything even more in depth and combining it with developing an awareness of commercial law would be very tricky, for me at least.
I know the research that you must participate in is crazy, quite dull for people of my disposition.
A DPhil will do little, I would imagine.
I'm just wondering why a firm wouldn't be more likely to interview someone with a PhD in law. In other fields (investment banking and public policy, to name a few) they place a premium on relevant PhDs. In many public sector type jobs, you can even bypass the experience requirement if you have a PhD. Why is law different?
Well, unlike in banks you don't just say 'I want to be an employment lawyer" and join the employment practice, you have to do your seats (4x6 months stints in different depts) as a trainee first before you qualify, after which you specialise. TC's are only for those 2 years: you (nor the firm) have no guarantee that you will remain with the firm on qualification and many people, in fact, do leave.
Therefore, if your PhD is on a very specialised area of law, it makes no difference as firstly what you have to do as a trainee is regulated by the law society and you are unlikely to have the opportunities to employ that knowledge, secondly, a TC is about being trained and you are there to learn and having a PhD doesn't add anything in that respect, and thirdly, you may leave the firm after your TC so they have no guarantee that your specialized knowledge will be used to their benefit, and I suppose the law is very dynamic and if you did your PhD about something rather specific it could be obsolete anyway by the time your TC is finished.
That's from the top of my head, anyway. Other people may disagree or have better reasons. Oh, and all this is about having a "PhD in law".
Therefore, if your PhD is on a very specialised area of law, it makes no difference as firstly what you have to do as a trainee is regulated by the law society and you are unlikely to have the opportunities to employ that knowledge, secondly, a TC is about being trained and you are there to learn and having a PhD doesn't add anything in that respect, and thirdly, you may leave the firm after your TC so they have no guarantee that your specialized knowledge will be used to their benefit, and I suppose the law is very dynamic and if you did your PhD about something rather specific it could be obsolete anyway by the time your TC is finished.
That's from the top of my head, anyway. Other people may disagree or have better reasons. Oh, and all this is about having a "PhD in law".
the fact that non-law graduates can do a one year conversion course and in theory, if they're good enough, get into any firm out there must mean something - that a heavily detailed knowledge in law isn't too necessary.
the buzz words these days seem to be 'commercial awareness'. i'd imagine that doing PhD studies in law would be a step closer to the textbooks and perhaps a step further away from the current commercial world, which itself is changing very quickly.
as said above, postgraduate study, especially a PhD, will involve studying specific elements of specific topics - that is, focusing on matters in great depth rather than in great breadth. whilst deep analysis is a useful skill in the legal world, employers also would to see that you're aware of the bigger picture.
the buzz words these days seem to be 'commercial awareness'. i'd imagine that doing PhD studies in law would be a step closer to the textbooks and perhaps a step further away from the current commercial world, which itself is changing very quickly.
as said above, postgraduate study, especially a PhD, will involve studying specific elements of specific topics - that is, focusing on matters in great depth rather than in great breadth. whilst deep analysis is a useful skill in the legal world, employers also would to see that you're aware of the bigger picture.
silence
the fact that non-law graduates can do a one year conversion course and in theory, if they're good enough, get into any firm out there must mean something - that a heavily detailed knowledge in law isn't too necessary.
the buzz words these days seem to be 'commercial awareness'. i'd imagine that doing PhD studies in law would be a step closer to the textbooks and perhaps a step further away from the current commercial world, which itself is changing very quickly.
as said above, postgraduate study, especially a PhD, will involve studying specific elements of specific topics - that is, focusing on matters in great depth rather than in great breadth. whilst deep analysis is a useful skill in the legal world, employers also would to see that you're aware of the bigger picture.
the buzz words these days seem to be 'commercial awareness'. i'd imagine that doing PhD studies in law would be a step closer to the textbooks and perhaps a step further away from the current commercial world, which itself is changing very quickly.
as said above, postgraduate study, especially a PhD, will involve studying specific elements of specific topics - that is, focusing on matters in great depth rather than in great breadth. whilst deep analysis is a useful skill in the legal world, employers also would to see that you're aware of the bigger picture.
It means they have studied the foundations required by the law society but not studied any other law modules. It means they have done their LPC. It means they will pick up the skills and knowledge they need during their training contract. It does not mean you can be a good lawyer with very little legal knowledge.
I'd agree with Silence on this one.
Whilst it isn't possible to be a good lawyer with very little legal knowledge, it is certainly possible to be a good lawyer on the basis of the limited black letter law knowledge that a CPE/GDL student may have.
Leaving aside the surprising amount of law you actually forget in the period post-Uni, you're not actually required to draw upon your own innate legal knowledge a great deal. A good knowledge of the principles in the various areas of the law is essential coupled with excellent research skills.
To answer the original question, I think a Phd in law would be largely useless when it comes to getting yourself ahead of the competition for training contracts. I make no comment about improving ones chances at the Bar. Likewise, I'm not suggesting that studying to this level of achievement is pointless per se - clearly its not. Rather, employers don't see that it will make you a better lawyer in practice.
Whilst it isn't possible to be a good lawyer with very little legal knowledge, it is certainly possible to be a good lawyer on the basis of the limited black letter law knowledge that a CPE/GDL student may have.
Leaving aside the surprising amount of law you actually forget in the period post-Uni, you're not actually required to draw upon your own innate legal knowledge a great deal. A good knowledge of the principles in the various areas of the law is essential coupled with excellent research skills.
To answer the original question, I think a Phd in law would be largely useless when it comes to getting yourself ahead of the competition for training contracts. I make no comment about improving ones chances at the Bar. Likewise, I'm not suggesting that studying to this level of achievement is pointless per se - clearly its not. Rather, employers don't see that it will make you a better lawyer in practice.
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