The ultimate final year NON-LAW thread Watch

kalokagathia
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Pernell Whitaker)
I would. I'd also explain why I had an interest in the law.

My guess is that this is where many people trip up, since they don't have a love for the law, rather a love for the perceived remuneration.
People who go into City firms because of a love of the law are going to find themselves rather disappointed...
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chalks
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#42
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(Original post by kalokagathia)
People who go into City firms because of a love of the law are going to find themselves rather disappointed...
Not this old chestnut again...
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Alan Smithee
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#43
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(Original post by kalokagathia)
People who go into City firms because of a love of the law are going to find themselves rather disappointed...
Elaborate, please.
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kalokagathia
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#44
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(Original post by chalks)
Not this old chestnut again...
Well it needs to be said, don’t you think? People who apply for training contracts at City firms because they have "a love for the law", to use Pernell Whitaker’s phrase, might find checking off UKLA Listing Rules, or complying definitions for facility agreements, or amending pro forma security documents, or drafting board minutes, or reading through tax filings in a data room, or building case bibles, or verifying prospectuses, or drawing up trade mark licences, or reviewing ADR disclosure documentation, or proof reading terms sheets, or checking through Articles and Memoranda, or performing Companies House searches, or managing whitewash procedures, or creating DeltaViews, and so on, all a little tedious…
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silence
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#45
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#45
unfortunately, no undergraduate degrees can offer an insight into check UKLA Listing Rules, or complying definitions for facility agreements etc ad nauseam.

out of all the degrees available (and although non-law degrees are just as valid a passport into the city firms), law is obviously the most suitable course to take for studying at a law firm. a "love for the law" is the only thing undergraduates can have and although much more is necessary for a career in law, these other qualities and interests are picked up on the job, or even during vac schemes and training.

i love studying english. i don't particularly enjoy making sure that my essays are set out correctly in the documentation preferred by my university's english department, or searching through the online library catalogues for rare periodicals, or sitting in an exam room for three hours etc. nevertheless, my "love for english" is the most appropriate backbone i could have to what i am currently doing at university. likewise, a "love for the law", although obviously not the sole requirement, is one of the most useful things an student can have. to say that they will be 'disappointed' is a pessimistic generalisation.
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kalokagathia
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#46
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(Original post by silence)
unfortunately, no undergraduate degrees can offer an insight into check UKLA Listing Rules, or complying definitions for facility agreements etc ad nauseam.

out of all the degrees available (and although non-law degrees are just as valid a passport into the city firms), law is obviously the most suitable course to take for studying at a law firm. a "love for the law" is the only thing undergraduates can have and although much more is necessary for a career in law, these other qualities and interests are picked up on the job, or even during vac schemes and training.

i love studying english. i don't particularly enjoy making sure that my essays are set out correctly in the documentation preferred by my university's english department, or searching through the online library catalogues for rare periodicals, or sitting in an exam room for three hours etc. nevertheless, my "love for english" is the most appropriate backbone i could have to what i am currently doing at university. likewise, a "love for the law", although obviously not the sole requirement, is one of the most useful things an student can have. to say that they will be 'disappointed' is a pessimistic generalisation.
Well, no.

The contention is not that people who love academic law are ill equipped to join City law firms. Since academic law and the role of a City solicitor require many of the same skill sets, people who enjoy and are good at undergraduate law clearly have the potential to do well in the big wide world of corporate finance and the like. However, very similar skill sets are also developed through history, philosophy, economics, geography, chemistry, and French – nay even English – degrees. If you think that "law is obviously the most suitable course to take for studying [sic]" at a City law firm, you probably don't quite realize either what City lawyers actually do, or what an academic law degree involves.

However, this is all a bit tangential. The point against which I actually took issue was that a "love for the law" is somehow attractive – or even required – for applicants to be successful in training contract interviews with City law firms.

This is absolute nonsense.

For the vast majority of future fee earners in City firms, a love for academic law is no more relevant than a love for history or philosophy or economics or geography or chemistry or French. The tasks I listed "ad nauseam" above are a small sample of the kind of the work which trainees and junior associates undertake. For none of them is a love – or even an interest in – the law necessary, since they each engage with academic law in pretty much the same way that writing a letter to your Aunt engages with academic English.

If an interviewer at a City firm is impressed by a love of academic law, he is almost certainly taking notice of what this reveals about the nature of the candidate's mind. It shows that they enjoy critical analysis and are probably able to absorb and assimilate large quantities of dense, complex information. But equally, this would be illustrated by a love of any almost challenging academic subject.

Stating that your "love for English" is "the most appropriate backbone" for studying English is tautology. You love academic English and you study academic English.

Stating that a love for law is the most appropriate backbone for working in a City firm is fallacy. If you expect City law firms to satisfy a love of academic law per se, you will indeed be disappointed.
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naelse
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#47
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You completely missed his point :rolleyes:
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kalokagathia
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#48
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#48
(Original post by naelse)
You completely missed his point :rolleyes:
Who, me?
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silence
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#49
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#49
(Original post by kalokagathia)
Stating that your "love for English" is "the most appropriate backbone" for studying English is tautology. You love academic English and you study academic English.
i don't particularly love the academic side of things, with specific regards to the examples of academia i cited. i enjoy the theories and principles of the subject rather than the academic formalities and tasks which are required for the subject to be assessed academically. if i enjoyed writing well documented essays, searching through library catalogues and doing exams instead of being interested in shakespeare, wordsworth and wilde, it would be very difficult for me to do my degree, academically.

i have only learnt to write essays to high academic standards, thoroughly search library catalogues etc whilst at university - it wasn't fully possible to gain this practical experience beforehand. in that sense, my love for english is the most useful prerequisite for studying english.

(Original post by kalokagathia)
Stating that a love for law is the most appropriate backbone for working in a City firm is fallacy. If you expect City law firms to satisfy a love of academic law per se, you will indeed be disappointed.
i see what you're saying. i'm not saying that work in a city law firm will satisfy a love of academic law; rather, a love of academic law will complement work in a city law firm and is the only attribute you can realistically possess before actually working at a firm. i know that 'commercial awareness' and such things are just as, if not more, useful; but really, that too must only be gained significantly after spending some time working in the legal profession.
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chalks
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#50
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(Original post by kalokagathia)
Well it needs to be said, don’t you think? People who apply for training contracts at City firms because they have "a love for the law", to use Pernell Whitaker’s phrase, might find checking off UKLA Listing Rules, or complying definitions for facility agreements, or amending pro forma security documents, or drafting board minutes, or reading through tax filings in a data room, or building case bibles, or verifying prospectuses, or drawing up trade mark licences, or reviewing ADR disclosure documentation, or proof reading terms sheets, or checking through Articles and Memoranda, or performing Companies House searches, or managing whitewash procedures, or creating DeltaViews, and so on, all a little tedious…
Ha! And you didn't even mention photocopying!

All the above is absolutely spot-on as far as a trainee goes. But, as you note, once you've escaped the tedium of those first couple of years, a City lawyer does do some slightly more interesting work. As such, I disagree with your statement: " If you expect City law firms to satisfy a love of academic law per se, you will indeed be disappointed." .There are plenty of opportunities for an interest in the "black letter" law to be satisfied at a City firm (more so in some departments than in others). Those who are drawn to that part of being a lawyer can certainly have a satisfying career within the City - it isn't all processing corporate docs for big transactions....
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kalokagathia
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#51
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#51
(Original post by chalks)
Ha! And you didn't even mention photocopying!

All the above is absolutely spot-on as far as a trainee goes. But, as you note, once you've escaped the tedium of those first couple of years, a City lawyer does do some slightly more interesting work. As such, I disagree with your statement: " If you expect City law firms to satisfy a love of academic law per se, you will indeed be disappointed." .There are plenty of opportunities for an interest in the "black letter" law to be satisfied at a City firm (more so in some departments than in others). Those who are drawn to that part of being a lawyer can certainly have a satisfying career within the City - it isn't all processing corporate docs for big transactions....
Yeah, but no-one likes a tax lawyer...
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silence
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#52
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#52
i'm quite confused about nabarro.

they seem to take pride in the fact that 'Every year more than 90% of [their] trainees come from the summer scheme'.

i was planning on applying for a TC with them but, in this light, it would be relatively useful to do their summer scheme. the only problem is that i don't know how this would fit into the equtation. surely, as the only scheme they have is in summer, i'd be applying for a TC around january 08, well before having done a vac scheme.

so i probably should have applied for it last summer? it doesn't say anything about whether they want penultimate law or penultimate non-law or final year non-law. quite confusing. does it look like i've missed the boat for this one then, despite not having even started the final year of my degree?
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TKR
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#53
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I'm a little confused now. 2nd Year Law students are applying for TCs around now, aren't they, so as a non-law student, I may be applying for a TC as late as this time next year, possibly after having done Summer vac schemes...? Is this right or am I labouring under a misapprehension?
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naelse
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#54
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Re: Nabarro, I imagine your vac scheme application would double up as a TC one too. They'd use the vac scheme as a long assessment centre and then interview you afterwards. I don't think you've missed the boat at all- if you think about it the law students have to apply to TCs before they've done the vac schemes too.

TKR: As a non-law student, applications for TCs can happen anytime from this coming winter. Some firms have a separate non-law deadline of Feb/March. Some firms use the same July 31st deadline for everyone. At any rate you can apply for TCs before you've done the vac schemes.
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dragon_1706
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Reema)
I have never had to justify why I didn't do a law degree - I've never actually done this in an application form or had to do this in a vac scheme interview - so far I've had 4. So rest assured that probably shouldn't be something that's a barrier - remember, law firms value diversity of experience that you can offer them (about 40% of the graduates they take are from non-law backgrounds).

They will be much more interested, however, in the contribution you'd make to the firm with your non-law degree. Every single interview I've been to asked me something along those lines.

Best of luck with the applications .
Interesting - I had the opposite experience and have always been asked why I wanted to change to law!
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TKR
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#56
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The Bakers website says this:

"Who is eligible to apply for a London Summer Placement?
Law and non-law students in their penultimate year of undergraduate study or in their second year of a four year course."

Does this definitely mean that we can't apply for their Summer Vac Scheme 2008?
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always + forever
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#57
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#57
^^^ Call them and ask. Maybe not just yet, as they are probably going through thousands of TC applications at the moment. I've known of people getting round requirements like these by calling firms up. On another subject, I remember that they have a really early closing dates for non-law TC applications, so they may not be that flexible, but there's no harm in picking up the phone I guess.
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TKR
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#58
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#58
I already emailed them last night, no reply as yet, but I guess they are very busy as you say. I don't mind that much if they don't take non-law students on the Summer Vac Scheme though, I'll just apply to other Vac schemes!
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naelse
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#59
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#59
You could still apply for a Bakers TC though, since their Tc deadline for non-lawyers is around the same time as Summer Vac Scheme deadlines anyway..
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TKR
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#60
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Yeah true, really want to be able to do a vac scheme at the place I do a TC though... I'm sure all of this pickyness and idealism will wear off about 7 minutes into October.
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