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    (Original post by vienna95)
    I also pointed out that it wasnt about intelligence but about other character traits, listing examples, that they were keen on and would not deem suitability down to academic grades alone. i dont want to see the state or public change the way these entrance criteria are employed.
    You are suggesting that public school kids have these extra traits and state-school children don't. I'm saying that isn't the case. If it was then fine let 90% of Oxbridge lot be public schooled if they are better overall cadidates. I'd like to know what you mean by these extra traits - is it understanding what hard work is, how to be independent, understanding what poverty is, understanding how the majority of the country live, qualities such as teamwork, dedication, ambition ...
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    That is just waffle; it doesn't mean anything. Could you possibly give an example?
    waffle? the point was clearly made.

    i think ive reiterated it about 5 times so far. quotas and their qualitive equivalents are applied, or pressured on, to university selection panels. this subject is one of the few threads of this current post topic.
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    If you have two people that have gone through different schooling systems all of their lives. One private and one state, then surely they are going to be at different levels. What Universities are now (finally) realising that a state school student can often excel, due to improved teaching at Uni, and become much more successful than the private school student. i.e. potential success is playing a bigger part in University admissions. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, it is the way it is. After many years of prejudiced admissions at the top Uni's I think it only fair that an adjustment period turns the tables.
    I still think that Oxbridge (and the Press) could do more to advertise to less priviliged people that they have a chance to study at a world-class institution.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    You are suggesting that public school kids have these extra traits and state-school children don't. I'm saying that isn't the case.
    yes, im suggesting that public school does sharpen you in certain areas. if you dont believe that then fine.

    If it was then fine let 90% of Oxbridge lot be public schooled if they are better overall cadidates.
    agreed. and the same for state school kids of course.

    I'd like to know what you mean by these extra traits - is it understanding what hard work is, how to be independent, understanding what poverty is, understanding how the majority of the country live, qualities such as teamwork, dedication, ambition ...
    [/QUOTE]

    unfortunately no. as many ppl will tell you, hard work and compassion dont always count for much. of course teamwork, dedication and ambition are important, but there are many more.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    You are suggesting that public school kids have these extra traits and state-school children don't. I'm saying that isn't the case. If it was then fine let 90% of Oxbridge lot be public schooled if they are better overall cadidates. I'd like to know what you mean by these extra traits - is it understanding what hard work is, how to be independent, understanding what poverty is, understanding how the majority of the country live, qualities such as teamwork, dedication, ambition ...
    Well said!
    I think the special trait is knowing the colour of money!
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    If you have two people that have gone through different schooling systems all of their lives. One private and one state, then surely they are going to be at different levels.
    in what areas? academically? thats not necessarily the case and neither is it the whole picture.

    What Universities are now (finally) realising that a state school student can often excel, due to improved teaching at Uni, and become much more successful than the private school student. i.e. potential success is playing a bigger part in University admissions. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, it is the way it is.
    yes i agree, but can you see the stress there is on the fact the Universities recognise it, they are making their own decisions. if they believe that one candidate is better than fair enough.

    After many years of prejudiced admissions at the top Uni's I think it only fair that an adjustment period turns the tables.
    i)can i have an example? i assume you mean they preffered 'toffs'?
    ii) i cannot support positive discrimination or crude quota methods. i dont find that fair. thats my standpoint.

    I still think that Oxbridge (and the Press) could do more to advertise to less priviliged people that they have a chance to study at a world-class institution.
    maybe yes, but essentially they have to be suitable for Oxbridge, that is the most important thing.
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    there are some excellent state schools and some terrible public schools. do you think the latter are intrinsically superior for some reason? apart from the fact that you have to pay for the latter...
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Well said!
    I think the special trait is knowing the colour of money!

    i thought we were making progress.

    to go over again what ive said already.

    we live in a capitalist world. fee-based education exists. they should provide a student with beneficial services. oxbridge has traditionally favoured those students because they probably have the edge. i agree its unfair.

    but that problem lies in the unfairness with entrance to fee-based education, not in unversity admission. my point has been to a number of people who keep ranting on about money, class etc. is that fair or unfair is not the topic of argument. if you think its unfair then start another thread. the argument here is about the extra quality of service that independent schooling provides and Oxbridge is looking for. i dont believe that Oxbridge should be restricted from harnessing that by being forced or coerced into accepting students who are not the most suitable. quotas are a reality that Oxbridge must fight.

    if you disagree with that particular topic then fair enough, id like to listen.
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    (Original post by edders)
    there are some excellent state schools and some terrible public schools. do you think the latter are intrinsically superior for some reason? apart from the fact that you have to pay for the latter...
    is this an open question, because i cant find the rhetoric.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    quotas are a reality that Oxbridge must fight.
    thats not true. if they really had quotas then the number of state school students would be much higher. the numbers have actually decreased since the days of grammar when they were abolished
    thats not to say the uni isnt making independent efforts to increase state school access, which is as it should be.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    is this an open question, because i cant find the rhetoric.
    eh
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    Vienna95, you seem to have toned down some of your arguments .
    In one of your earlier posts you said:

    (Original post by vienna95)
    ppl who will ultimately be going into higher positions in government or the civil services and lead the country. i couldnt care less if youve got triple A-stars, its about upbringing, values and a certain flair as much as any academic ability. the majority of ppl who fit the bill are from public(private) schooling and are naturally suited to this unique form of education...
    I think your argument stems from what you think a government is about - for you it sounds like its some kind of ruling body which tells people what to do, to me it's a public service - people in it are, if you like, 'civil servants' answerable to the people.

    I would have thought that one of the biggest reasons for voting for a government is that they actually represented and understood their electorate. Are you seriously saying that public schools kids actually understand what the world is really like from their own experiences? Did they learn it from a book ! I'm not saying publc school kids don't know nothing, but to say that they are better suited is incorrect.
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    (Original post by edders)
    thats not true. if they really had quotas then the number of state school students would be much higher. the numbers have actually decreased since the days of grammar when they were abolished
    thats not to say the uni isnt making independent efforts to increase state school access, which is as it should be.
    well, ive never cited figures(if youd like to provide me with some id be glad to find out) other posters have pointed out that the numbers are high and increasing, so theres definately a contradiction somewhere. again figures are subject to spin to make them look favourable, its all part of the wider problem. i was thinking about the number of criticisms from Oxbridge to the continuing restrictions and interference that the state is subjecting them to.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    Vienna95, you seem to have toned down some of your arguments .
    In one of your earlier posts you said:



    I think your argument stems from what you think a government is about - for you it sounds like its some kind of ruling body which tells people what to do, to me it's a public service - people in it are, if you like, 'civil servants' answerable to the people.

    I would have thought that one of the biggest reasons for voting for a government is that they actually represented and understood their electorate. Are you seriously saying that public schools kids actually understand what the world is really like from their own experiences? Did they learn it from a book ! I'm not saying publc school kids don't know nothing, but to say that they are better suited is incorrect.
    not at all. im merely trying to detail and refine it so that i cant be continually mis interpreted.

    oh come on, you are being completely pedantic. i was giving examples where Oxbridge students can be found . others are writers, critics, journalists etc. some can be find in all the high echelons of society, including the government. i still dont really get your point, but ill say that Oxbridge students are accepted as the elite and it is natural that will move into holding critical roles.
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    vienna95, whats your educational history. id like to know where youre coming from here.
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    We agree then :eek: !

    True that Oxbridge candidates are the very best and so are the most able in the country to do things like governement etc. But the point you made earlier was about getting into Oxbridge and that you disliked it's opening up access schemes. You stated then that public school kids were better suited to going to Oxbridge and state educated weren't. Thats the bit that is wrong.
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    (Original post by edders)
    vienna95, whats your educational history. id like to know where youre coming from here.

    why?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    why?
    because i want to know whether you are advocating something youve been through yourself or just have an outside impression of
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    We agree then :eek: !

    True that Oxbridge candidates are the very best and so are the most able in the country to do things like governement etc. But the point you made earlier was about getting into Oxbridge and that you disliked it's opening up access schemes. You stated then that public school kids were better suited to going to Oxbridge and state educated weren't. Thats the bit that is wrong.

    hehe i feel we are about to go back to square one, but lets hope not...
    my point was that they were better suited, in areas not always academic(this was in reaction to the early argument about 'how can i get AAA, and not get into Oxford?!), because Oxbridge deemed them to be. its not black and white since i also stressed that this was a majority.
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    (Original post by edders)
    because i want to know whether you are advocating something youve been through yourself or just have an outside impression of
    neither makes my arguments less valid so it still appears irrelevant to me.
 
 
 
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