batboy
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Hey dudes,
I don't know if this is the right place to post this question, so if I am in the wrong place please forgive me.

How is it that one becomes a doctor in England?

I know in the USA you have to go to graduate school to do medicine and then a series of years (residency)

How to become a surgeon in the UK?
I know that the UK has the Bachelor of surgery degrees - does this mean that there would be less residency programs?
And what is a doctor's salary there?

All input/opinions/comments/advice/etc./etc. is appreciated!

Thanks guys!
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ma2k5
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I don't think enough people experienced to talk about this. I would suggest google/wiki and maybe even check out some hospital surgery vacancy sites to see requirements.
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batboy
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No one here knows about how long it takes for the med school and how to specialize and how long it takes?
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ChemistBoy
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5 years for medical school I know that much. I'm pretty sure you have to spend a few years after that before you can really specialise.
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InArduisFouette
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(Original post by batboy)
Hey dudes,
I don't know if this is the right place to post this question, so if I am in the wrong place please forgive me.

How is it that one becomes a doctor in England?

I know in the USA you have to go to graduate school to do medicine and then a series of years (residency)

How to become a surgeon in the UK?
I know that the UK has the Bachelor of surgery degrees - does this mean that there would be less residency programs?
And what is a doctor's salary there?

All input/opinions/comments/advice/etc./etc. is appreciated!

Thanks guys!
Uk medical school is a 5 year double bachelors medicine and surgery - entry standards are high

you would then also have complete the Foundation years (FY1 is provisional registration FY2 is full registration) and get entry to a StR programme which will last 5-6 (or more ) years

salary depends on both seniority and the nature of the shift work / on call that that post has ...
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Ten Green Bottles
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http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/...es/profile692/

That should help.
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drmm
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Once you finish medical school you spend a year (called foundation 1) in three different placements, normally medicine, surgery and another specality. After this year you enter F2 and experience more specialities such as GP, obs and gynae, etc.

Then you enter speciality training for your choosen speciality and spend about 7-8years training while you take your post graduate exams and then after which you hopefully gain a consultants post.
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Mitch87
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So yes, the 'average' way of doing things is:

*University - 5/6 years - Graduating with degrees in Medicine & Surgery.
*F1 & F2 - 2 years covering specialities in hospital medicine & general practise.

THEN...
*Specialist Training (hospital medicine, (having picked your desired niche) - 6+ years - working your way up and sitting more exams etc. This is (obviously) the route to becoming a surgeon.

OR

*GP Training - a few years, though not entirely sure how many...

I think thats right, anyway....
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KwungSun
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(Original post by batboy)
Hey dudes,
I don't know if this is the right place to post this question, so if I am in the wrong place please forgive me.

How is it that one becomes a doctor in England?

I know in the USA you have to go to graduate school to do medicine and then a series of years (residency)

How to become a surgeon in the UK?
I know that the UK has the Bachelor of surgery degrees - does this mean that there would be less residency programs?
And what is a doctor's salary there?

All input/opinions/comments/advice/etc./etc. is appreciated!

Thanks guys!
If you have the opportunity to study and qualify in the States then basically forget about the UK. Doctors here are underpaid and underrespected, at least by comparison. Recent legislation makes it very difficult for non-EU nationals to get anywhere within the National Health Service, even those that have obtained their qualifications in the UK. Even for EU/UK graduates, the system is pretty **** in many respects (such as recruitment being based exclusively on grades/extra-curriculars with no interviews, not knowing your salary before you accept the job etc.). I guess the only reason for you to come here would be to get your degree and then go off and practice in another country that immediately recognises UK medical credentials.
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Renal
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How about the TSR Medicine Forum?

Some good answers above but there's far, far more to it than that.
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bep
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(Original post by KwungSun)
If you have the opportunity to study and qualify in the States then basically forget about the UK. Doctors here are underpaid and underrespected, at least by comparison. Recent legislation makes it very difficult for non-EU nationals to get anywhere within the National Health Service, even those that have obtained their qualifications in the UK. Even for EU/UK graduates, the system is pretty **** in many respects (such as recruitment being based exclusively on grades/extra-curriculars with no interviews, not knowing your salary before you accept the job etc.). I guess the only reason for you to come here would be to get your degree and then go off and practice in another country that immediately recognises UK medical credentials.
Why is it that Medicine is better in the US than here?
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Renal
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It is and it isn't.

Depends on what you do, where you do it, when in your career you do it. There's lots of variables.
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Theos
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I am currently working in a hospital as a Medical Staffing Officer, which means i'm the guy who employs doctors in my Trust. We currently employ roughly 250 doctors from medical students through to consultants.

You have picked the worst time to become a doctor in the UK. As you have probably heard on the news recently, we have just gone through the biggest reform of medical training for decades - and it was a big farce!

As has already been said, if you have the opportunity to train in America go for it. America runs it's own training programme and will not count any training you have already completed in the UK. If you work your way up to consultant in the UK, you will still be required to start from the bottom of the pile when you reach America. Also, American salaries are far higher than that of the UK doctors. You can expect to have a flash car and a big house over there. The only thing is, you work a lot harder for it. In 2009, doctors in the UK cannot work an average week of more than 45 hours. In America you can expect to work at least 60 hours a week as a minimum.

As far as the UK training scheme goes now, you can expect to spend 4 or 5 years in medical school to get a degree such as MBBS or MBChB. After medical school (as far as we have been told) you will now automatically go onto the 'Foundation Training Scheme' which lasts 2 years. As already stated, you will rotate to different specialities every 4 months to get a 'flavour' or each speciality before you make a decision as what you want to train as. As an F1, you are only eligible for registration with the GMC (governing body for doctors) and therefore are not able to do any sole work on your own and must be supervised at all times. You can therefore not do any on-calls duties for example. An F2 has limited registration and can work unsupervised and undertake almost all duties, including on-calls.

Once you completed your F2 training, we believe you now automatically progress onto the speciality training of your choice, provided there are available slots. Until 1st August 2007, you had to apply to a rotational training scheme and a lot of people were unsuccessful and had to undertake locum (temporary) positions.

If you know anything of the previous doctor titles, there used to be Senior House Officers (SHO) and Specialist Registrars (SpR). SHOs have now been replaced with ST1, ST2 and ST3. Specialist Registrars have now been replaced with ST4, ST5 and ST6. ST stands for Specialist Training.

Once you complete your ST6 year, you will get your CCST (Certificate of Completion of Specialist Training). This CCST enables you to be appointable to Consultant posts in that speciality.

For GPs, they do their F1 and F2 years then go on the GPVTS scheme for 2 years. This is like the Foundation Scheme in that you will rotate every 4 months and do various specialities again. After 2 years, you do 1 year as a GP Registrar in a GP Surgery where upon completion you will gain you CCST and be appointable as a GP.

There are also offer 'career grades' of doctors which are non-training posts. The first of which is Staff Grade, the next up the ladder is Associate Specialist and finally Consultant. As staff grades are trust appointed, they define the minimum requirements, but most Trusts will require a minimum of 3 years in that speciality and part 1 of your Royal College Membership is prefered. Associate Specialist is 4-5 years experience and usually full Royal College membership. Consultant requires a CCST although you are able to work as a locum consultant without a CCST. You can also gain your CCST now through Article 14 of PMETB terms, but i will not go into detail here.

As far as salary goes, you will start as an F1 on around £22k, F2 to ST3 is around £27-36k, ST4 is around £33-44k and consultant starts on £72k. This is the basic salary, hospitals will put nearly all their trainees on on-call duties, which depending on the frequency, can be anywhere from an additional 20% of your basic salary to an extra 100%. Obviously, the higher you get, the less strenuous on-calls you do, therefore the on-call payments go down. For example, in my Trust, i pay SHOs Band 1B on-call payments which is 40% of their basic salary, so they would be on a total of around £37k total. Consultants are paid by sessions rather than as a percentage and they'd start on around £78k total salary.

You also stated a desire to be a surgeon. Now, i attended a Deanery meeting about a month ago where they discussed the recent recruitment of doctors due to Modernising Medical Careers. The Postgraduate Dean stated figures something like 6000 people applying for only 100 jobs. However, he also said that in the first round of recruitment he still had posts left over because the majority of the 6000 who applied were unappointable as surgeons. These are only ballpark figures as i work in a psychiatric hospital so have no need for remembering surgery figures accurately, but you get the jist.

If you really want to be a doctor, good luck with your career. I personally wouldn't suggest joining the NHS at the moment as a doctor - let's hope it improves!

If you need any more info, don't hesitate to ask.
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KwungSun
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(Original post by bep)
Why is it that Medicine is better in the US than here?
Well in short because a) it's a free market for healthcare and b) there's more money to be spent on healthcare in the US. Don't get me wrong, it's not as though everyone who trains as a doctor is guaranteed fame and fortune, and there's quite a few med school graduates who have a hard time finding training posts, but those that do work hard and get good grades tend to get good jobs, which is more than one can say for the UK.
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Renal
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There are also offer 'career grades' of doctors which are non-training posts. The first of which is Staff Grade, the next up the ladder is Associate Specialist and finally Consultant.
I understood the system to be Trust Grade at SHO level, Staff Grade at SpR level and Associate Specialist to be a consultant without the teaching and management responsibilities. When did it change?

If you know anything of the previous doctor titles, there used to be Senior House Officers (SHO) and Specialist Registrars (SpR). SHOs have now been replaced with ST1, ST2 and ST3. Specialist Registrars have now been replaced with ST4, ST5 and ST6. ST stands for Specialist Training.
So why are F2s (i.e. 1st year SHOs) getting SHO jobs? What about specialities that have longer or shorter training, is the distinction still made there?

As an F1, you are only eligible for registration with the GMC (governing body for doctors) and therefore are not able to do any sole work on your own and must be supervised at all times. You can therefore not do any on-calls duties for example. An F2 has limited registration and can work unsupervised and undertake almost all duties, including on-calls.
F1s have provisional registration, F2s have full registration.

Once you completed your F2 training, we believe you now automatically progress onto the speciality training of your choice,
We believe you get shafted into the speciality you don't want in a place you don't want - or you go to Oz. There's certainly no 'automatically' about it as far as we can see.

The only thing is, you work a lot harder for it. In 2009, doctors in the UK cannot work an average week of more than 45 hours. In America you can expect to work at least 60 hours a week as a minimum.
Doctors haven't been allowed to work longer than 45 hours for a while now, as far as I can see, almost all of them do - 60 hours/wk would seem about average.
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welcome_to_the_jungle
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Are you serious that you cant practice in America if you trained over here? What the hell...
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welcome_to_the_jungle
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Say you wanted to become a dermatologist but you didnt want to enter surgery, how long would it take to specialise? 5 years + 2 years + 7 years again?
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Renal
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Are you serious that you cant practice in America if you trained over here? What the hell...
Yes you can, but you have to pass US medicine finals (USMLE), find a job, apply for and get your green card and start from the very bottom of the training system.

Similarly, US doctors (well, anyone who's not EU) can't work over here until they've got their PLAB and visa.
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Renal
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(Original post by welcome_to_the_jungle)
Say you wanted to become a dermatologist but you didnt want to enter surgery, how long would it take to specialise? 5 years + 2 years + 7 years again?
Essentially yes, would-be dermatologists do the "Core Medical Training" ST course before going on to derma (but **** knows how it's really going to happen).
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Theos
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(Original post by Renal)
I understood the system to be Trust Grade at SHO level, Staff Grade at SpR level and Associate Specialist to be a consultant without the teaching and management responsibilities. When did it change?
Yes, 'Trust Grade' is equivalent to SHO. However, 'Career Grade' is not the same as Trust Grade. Career Grade means any permanent job which is not a tranining post. ie. Staff Grade, Associate Specialist or Consultant. Staff Grade has never been equivalent to SpR and Associate Specialist has never been equivalent to Consultant.


So why are F2s (i.e. 1st year SHOs) getting SHO jobs? What about specialities that have longer or shorter training, is the distinction still made there?
As far as i understand it, all speciality training will now last 6 years. GP will difer in that it is only a total of 3 years. As for F2s getting SHO jobs, as you said, F2 is equivalent to the first year of the old SHO grade.


We believe you get shafted into the speciality you don't want in a place you don't want - or you go to Oz. There's certainly no 'automatically' about it as far as we can see.
Aye, generally speaking, a lot of people will be forced into choosing a speciality they don't really want just to get a job. However, even though you may not get the speciality you want, as long as you complete your logbooks and can prove successful completion of your F2 year, you should be guaranteed a speciality training post. Up until August, you had to apply for your speciality training seperately and be up against all other doctors in the country, including locums. This is at least how my colleagues and i understand the new reforms.

Doctors haven't been allowed to work longer than 45 hours for a while now, as far as I can see, almost all of them do - 60 hours/wk would seem about average.
The current maximum is 56 hours under EWTD. All hospitals have to complete two rounds of monitoring per year and submit the results to the deanery to prove they do not work over 56 hours. If they do, they are in breach of the banding of their on-call rotas and can be required to raise the pay banding of the rota to compensate. I think during my hospital's last monitoring, my doctors worked an average week of around 47 hours. Unfortunately, some hospitals create ridiculous rotas, on-call requirements and patient management systems which bump up a doctors work load and hours.
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