Army ends support operation in Northern Ireland. Progress? Watch

Richy_Boi
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Army ends support operation in NI

Soldiers have spent the last 38 years in action in Northern Ireland
The British army's operation in Northern Ireland came to an end at midnight on Tuesday after 38 years.


What are you thoughts...Is this a positive development for the Government and the people? Can we thank Tony Blair?

Discuss....
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L i b
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Tony Blair did a lot for Northern Ireland, I must admit.

However I'm yet to entirely trust that the place won't return to its old ways - then we'll be ****ed, as it would be politically unthinkable to order the troops back in these days. The PSNI would get slaughtered.
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Morbo
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Of course it's positive. What else could it be? There's not so much sectarian violence these days, and of that there is, the police are more than capable of dealing with the petrol bombs etc. now.
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L i b
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(Original post by Worzo)
Of course it's positive. What else could it be? There's not so much sectarian violence these days, and of that there is, the police are more than capable of dealing with the petrol bombs etc. now.
By "dealing with" I assume you can only mean "pretty much ignoring".
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Agent Smith
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Hmm, let's see, the PSNI and Army both agree that security can now be handled by the former without the help of the latter. How is that not progress?

Personally I'd rather it hadn't been accomplished by appeasing and legitimising terrorists, but the bottom line is that fewer people are dying. And anyway, we'd tried everything else.
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Agent Smith
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(Original post by Libertin du Nord)
Tony Blair did a lot for Northern Ireland, I must admit.

However I'm yet to entirely trust that the place won't return to its old ways - then we'll be ****ed, as it would be politically unthinkable to order the troops back in these days. The PSNI would get slaughtered.
Are you the sort of person that coughs loudly next to a house of cards? :p:
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yawn
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It's a recognition that the people of NI are responsible for their own 'policing'.

That is indubitably progress. Still some ways to go though.
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Agamemnon
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It's not really progress in the sense that the underlying causes of all the violence are still unresolved.

Who here thinks there will not be more violence close to the time when Northern Ireland is expected to join with the Republic of Ireland?
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Renal
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It is progress - no more squaddies are going to get slaughtered in that ******* posting (for now anyway).

For anyone interested, the army's written history and analysis of Banner is here.



RIP lads.
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Agent Smith
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(Original post by Agamemnon)
It's not really progress in the sense that the underlying causes of all the violence are still unresolved.

Who here thinks there will not be more violence close to the time when Northern Ireland is expected to join with the Republic of Ireland?
Quite. However, hopefully the governments of both Britain and Southern Ireland will, for some time to come, continue to see the benefits of maintaining the status quo.

Incidentally, Southern Ireland would probably encounter some resistance from the UN if it tried to undermine the sovereignty of the UK.
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Agent Smith
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(Original post by Renal)
It is progress - no more squaddies are going to get slaughtered in that ******* posting (for now anyway).

For anyone interested, the army's written history and analysis of Banner is here.

[img]http:/www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/07B526DB-99B3-43DE-B72A-C19CEC39CB05/0/banner01.jpg[/img]

RIP lads.
Squaddies? Pardon me, but the risk of death is part of the job. Nobody forced them to join the Army. Call me callous, but I'd care about them second (a close second, mind you), and the innocent victims first. They didn't sign up for anything, and they couldn't defend themselves when it happened nevertheless. That's not to say, obviously, that the various soldiers assigned to Banner didn't do a sterling job (no pun intended), and that having them not die any more isn't a big step up from having them die quite a lot.
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Renal
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I agree with you in part mate.

Death is a risk of the job (and it's to be hoped that those that lead them view it as something to be avoided). Now, should they be a target of criminals simply because of that?

Innocent victims first, okay, I understand that.

As for whether or not the soldiers did 'sterling work', I think it's hard to discuss without knowledge, understanding and experience - especially where hindsight is used. Ops in NI throw up plenty of examples of laymen judgement of military actions, not always correctly - Lee Clegg for example.
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Agamemnon
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(Original post by Agent Smith)
Incidentally, Southern Ireland would probably encounter some resistance from the UN if it tried to undermine the sovereignty of the UK.
It would, but the nationalists know that the Catholics in Northern Ireland have a higher birth rate than the Loyalists, and it will only take a few decades before they outnumber the Loyalists (the ratio is currently about 60:40). The result of a referendum asking whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK or join with the South will then be that it should join with the South. The violence will then likely start up again as the loyalists will not want this.
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Jim-ie
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(Original post by Agamemnon)
It's not really progress in the sense that the underlying causes of all the violence are still unresolved.

Who here thinks there will not be more violence close to the time when Northern Ireland is expected to join with the Republic of Ireland?
A lot of loyalists accept the referendum idea and the political wing of the UVF was the first loyalist/unionist party to accept the agreements. I work with mainly protestants and a lot of said to me when talking about it that they would accept a united Ireland if the majority voted for it and if they could keep their own devolved parliament (something i agree with). Its just a matter of time.

There would be some violence, but nothing on the scale of what happened, it didnt start over a united Ireland and it didnt end over a united Ireland. It started with wanting equal rights and reforms and ended with gaining those rights, a united Ireland was only part of the picture and most knew it wasnt going to happen through violence which is why we turned to politics.
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Agamemnon
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(Original post by Jim-ie)
I work with mainly protestants and a lot of said to me when talking about it that they would accept a united Ireland if the majority voted for it and if they could keep their own devolved parliament (something i agree with). Its just a matter of time.
If I was living there I'd favour joining with the South as soon as possible. With both the UK and ROI in the EU and with increasing globalisation, I can't see it making that much difference really (Also the ROI's economy is doing very well at the moment). If they want to keep a devolved parliament, it's probably a good thing, considering the complexity of Northern Irish politics.
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Jim-ie
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It would make a difference but it wouldnt have the impact that it would have had 30 years ago obviously, its a different world these days.

I'm a republican but at the minute i'm content with what is going on and dont believe the time is right for a united ireland, most of us are starting to look beyond hard headed nationalism and seeing what we can do for ourselves as a nation and as a future single state, what role will republicans play in the south? it would be a big possibility that we would form parts of coalition governments because of the huge support for SF in the north which would be voting for TDs at that point instead of MPs.

A united Ireland will bring in huge changes to the whole island. If the North wants to have a devolved assembly it'll probably include the other 3 counties, its a bit similar to the Eire Nua ("New Ireland") policy of Republican Sinn Fein (not Provisional SF under Adams for those who dont know). Even parties would change, the SDLP would end up merging with Fianna Fail, and as an SF voter I'd be suprised if a lot of other SF voters would switch to voting for Fianna Fail or another southern party. I cant say what the DUP or UUP would do with themselves, its unlikely they would cease to exist.

I've found that most protestants are afraid of being treated the way nationalists were treated in NI, in a united ireland and it is a very valid worry but Ireland these days is completely different to what it was 20 years ago especially with the EU running the show.
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40550
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^Agreed. Given the current situation, I would safely predict violent opposition to a united Ireland. I agree though that the North doesn't feel isolated from the Republic in the same way it did decades ago. It will be hard to tackle unionist fears of a united Ireland. But Ireland is a modern, foward-thinking nation now. The unionist community would be treated with ten times more respect than they treated the nationalist community for eighty years
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Jim-ie
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violent opposition wouldnt come from the UVF, the PUP where in the driving seat of the GFA. Ervine himself said the ideas being used today where mainly thought up by prisoners, loyalist and republican, when they found themselves inside and not knowing why, really why.
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Agent Smith
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(Original post by Jim-ie)
I've found that most protestants are afraid of being treated the way nationalists were treated in NI, in a united ireland and it is a very valid worry but Ireland these days is completely different to what it was 20 years ago especially with the EU running the show.
Perhaps. But there again, most Catholics probably realise that their days of persecution in Northern Ireland are over, so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Thus, it makes sense not to go to the effort of changing things - particularly with the added risk of destabilising the incredibly delicate balance that Blair and Ahern managed to create. Only if there somehow emerges a situation where there's a risk of violence erupting unless Northern Ireland joins the South should "unification" be explored; otherwise I say leave things be.
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Henri Lloyd
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(Original post by Renal)
[...] that ******* posting (for now anyway). [...]
Is that what you call a sensible contribution to a discussion?
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