Criticism of Islam is not a hate crime, nor racist, nor enophobic

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Fixed above.

And noted.

its only flawed in your eyes because you are negatively predisposed to Islam

I have the decency to respect a constructive argument, even if it disagrees with me

Reply 61

Iridocyclitis

Original post by alevelstresss

I have the decency to respect a constructive argument, even if it disagrees with me

Evidently.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 62

Emperor Trajan

Original post by alevelstresss

A pointless reply, you are ignoring the fact that despite Mohammed being 'perfect', people do not follow his behaviour in this regard.

Well in relation to child marriage, I'm afraid so...

"...In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates — Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea(63%) — are Islamic majority countries.[12]""The age at which India's Muslim girls can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law,is 9, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[87][88] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl aged 15 or even 12."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

Heck there are Muslims reluctant to prohibit child marriage due to justifications for it, arising from Islamic scripture and the example of Muhammad...

"Another move to ban child marriages in Pakistan has fallen at the first hurdle. The bill to prohibit underage marriages has been withdrawn after the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) declared it un-Islamic."

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1027742/settled-matter-bill-aiming-to-ban-child-marriages-/

"...Much of the opposition has been voiced by conservative elements within the opposition party, Islah, and within the Sharia Committee, along with other religious institutions."

"Those who oppose the bill cite the example of the marriage between the Prophet Mohammed and his second wife Aisha, who was said to be around nine at the time. “We view a child as mature when it reaches puberty, not when it’s 18,” said Sheikh Mohammed al-Hazmi, who is a member of the Yemeni parliament."

http://www.irinnews.org/feature/2010/03/28/deep-divisions-over-child-brides

So there is an obvious flaw in the criticism of Mohammed being a pedophile.

Oh I'd shy away from using such a term as paedophile upon Muhammad, but I would view his exemplary role model status, in along with his act of engaging in a child marriage and justifications for it in Islamic scripture, has allowed child marriages to continue in a number of Muslim majority states and as for paedophilia, as stated earlier, child marriage can help to facilitate that.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 63

mariachi

Original post by alevelstresss

you are ignoring the fact that despite Mohammed being 'perfect', people do not follow his behaviour in this regard. So there is an obvious flaw in the criticism of Mohammed being a pedophile.

criticising Muhammad makes perfect sense, since many Muslims follow his example, and many other Muslims try to follow it

for this reason, Muhammad bears a clear responsibility for pedophilia in the Muslim world : if he had not given a bad example , many young girls would have been spared being married off at puberty (if not earlier)

Reply 64

mariachi

Original post by alevelstresss

don't waste my time with your petty needs to attack me in future, I want a sensible debate about Islam

no, what you want is standard Islamic apologetics - criticism is dismissed by you offhand

a serious debate about Islam is a different thing : however, it is barely possible to conduct it in absolute terms, since Islam means so many different things to different people

what is possible is a debate about Islam in history : its practices, its most important streams, its undoubted successes and its unmitigated disasters

Reply 65

RF_PineMarten

Original post by Nirvana1989-1994

I criticise religions all the time, but I think there is a disproportionate amount of hate directed at Muslims. And, I find it amusing that a lot of this hate towards them come from 'Good Christians' who are supposed to 'Love thy neighbour'.

Is that not maybe because that one particular religion is responsible for or linked to more problems than others?

We don't get Christian terrorists murdering people for blasphemy in western countries, but there has been violence and terrorist attacks by Islamist extremists like the Charlie Hebdo attacks or the issue with that Danish (I think it was Danish) cartoon, not to mention terrorism in general which is almost all Islamist.

Christians here in the UK are pretty secular and don't push it on other people, but we do get Muslims protesting and calling for things like Sharia law (or some aspects of it) and for restrictions on freedom of speech.

Christians here in the UK are generally accepting, yet the Muslim community undeniably has issues with sexism and homophobia, and there are cases of people being disowned by their families for leaving the Muslim faith.

In the US, where there are quite a few nutjob Christians who will disown children who come out as gay and try to restrict their daughters' sex life based on outdated moral puritanism among many other things, Christianity seems to get more attention and criticism than it does here in the UK.

Reply 66

Nirvana1989-1994

Original post by RF_PineMarten

Christianity has caused a lot of problems, it's just not really in 'vogue' to talk about them much right now. And, I don't agree you when you said Christians here are secular, and don't push it on other people, because a lot do, even if it is passive-aggressively. And, plus that gives people no excuse to be outright hateful to people with a different religion.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 67

username1022139

Original post by alevelstresss

don't waste my time with your petty needs to attack me in future, I want a sensible debate about Islam

You can't be serious? In your first post you called people "idiots" and "morons" - and now you're upset that people are attacking you?

Reply 68

IronicalMan

Original post by BobSausage

Did you even bother to read the first comment which said 'don't bother with the pointless buzzwords' They are not stupid they are not bigoted unless you can explain how. Feel free to disagree with my argument but at least have the decency to tell me why you disagree. Because my views are perfectly reasonable. When was the last Christian 'terror' attack. The middle ages. Do Christians go around shooting up places for using OMG or depicting Jesus or God? NO THEY DON'T and that is why I am disgusted with your bigoted refusing to see the truth views. That is why I get annoyed at politicians and people like you. Just look it is not bigoted or untrue to state the facts. This year alone : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#2016 Are you going to say this is bigoted too?
In the same time 0 terror attacks from Christians. Wow yeah. What disgustingly bigoted facts!

You vote green party you specialist, christ.

Reply 69

alevelstresss

Original post by jake4198

You can't be serious? In your first post you called people "idiots" and "morons" - and now you're upset that people are attacking you?

I'd never do that first, if I call someone an idiot, its likely that their boring old aggressive attacks annoyed me

Reply 70

safaa7

Original post by alevelstresss

correct, it isn't.

But so many of you idiots on this website can't differentiate between criticism and hate. Its not a 'criticism' to instantly incriminate islam and all muslims with a terrorist attack. Its not a 'criticism' to want to ban islamic immigration and to deport refugees. Its not a 'criticism' to go around yelling "religion of peace" or "mohammed was a pedo" on any islamic thread on this website.

Similarly, many of you here also think that discriminating against muslims is 'ok' because of their religion. It isn't.

You anti-pc morons are a part of the problem.

preachhhhhh

Reply 71

Pinkberry_y

Yes thank you. Can we please put an end to the PC brigade madness

Reply 72

mariachi

Original post by alevelstresss

so many of you idiots on this website can't differentiate between criticism and hate. Its not a 'criticism' to instantly incriminate Islam and all Muslims with a terrorist attack. Its not a 'criticism' to want to ban Islamic immigration and to deport refugees. Its not a 'criticism' to go around yelling "religion of peace" or "Mohammed was a pedo" on any Islamic thread on this website.

there are no "Islamic" threads on this website : except, perhaps, the Islamic society. For the rest, it's every man for himself, and no holds barred

Original post by alevelstresss

You anti-PC morons are a part of the problem.

we morons and idiots can recognise an argument when we read one. This is not the case for everyone : your cheap insults simply speak about yourself and your desperate lack of any intelligible arguments

best

Reply 73

PTMalewski

Original post by alevelstresss

If only it were that simple little boy. He lived in a very different society to our own, long ago. Traditions were different back then, and they still are now. Its not a valid criticism to whinge about Mohammed being a pedophile when practically the whole world was more positively predisposed to that sort of stuff.

Sure, but ignored one thing: Biology is the same. Pedophilia is recognized as a bad thing in our modern times, because now we have lots of evidence that it is very bad both for mental and physical condition of children and may cause their death as well. Our modern methods of seeing the world, such as methodology, make our modern views probably more correct and accurate. Muhammad did something that fits modern definition of pedophilia, and because biology was the same, (and children's psyche most probably was same in basis), we may rather confidently say that Muhammad did a bad thing. Only because of the times, the culture he lived in, we may not blame him too much (though God's messenger would be expected to do better than average), but his action was no doubt harmful and as such should never again be performed by anyone. Unfortunetly sometimes it is, and that deserves criticism.

Original post by Nirvana1989-1994

Among some overgeneralising parts of society certainly, still:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html
27% of British muslims clearly don't understand the point of liberal state and freedom of speech, so you clearly have a rather big problem.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 74

Nirvana1989-1994

Original post by PTMalewski

Well, to be honest, I'm betting most have them have had those views pushed down their throats from a young age.

Reply 75

PTMalewski

Probably but this doesn't make our situation any better.

Reply 76

mariachi

Original post by PTMalewski

Muhammad did a bad thing. Only because of the times, the culture he lived in, we may not blame him too much (though God's messenger would be expected to do better than average), but his action was no doubt harmful

true

as far as prophets/warlords/legislators of the time go, Muhammad was about average, or even slightly better : still, this is not what you would expect from God's ultimate messenger, and the perfect example to be followed by humankind for the rest of its existence.

Original post by PTMalewski

you clearly have a rather big problem.

true

contemporary Islam (as anyone can see) has many, many problems, and this is just one of them, but by no means one of the less serious

best

Reply 77

MrsSheldonCooper

Original post by Ladbants

Jesus never married a six year old...

Is it true that Muhammad consummated his marriage with the girl while she was still a child?

According to the Da Vinci code, Jesus had the decency to marry an adult which the Catholic Church then slated because she had a child with him.

Beats marrying and having sex with a 9 year old.

Reply 78

QE2

Original post by alevelstresss

Did this occur 1500 years ago in a very different society to our own? Pedophilia was more common across the entire world in 500 AD, not exclusively to Islam.

But of every historical practitioner of child abuse, only one is still revered as the "best of creation", "pure guide", "perfect man", "moral guide", "ideal example", (all genuine quotes) etc, so your argument is fatally flawed.

If Muhammad is the perfect example for Muslims to aspire to, then they cannot condemn child abuse today without condemning their prophet. Which obviously they will not do, so any claims of condemnation of child abuse must be viewed accordingly.

Reply 79

QE2

Original post by Ladbants

So was Muhammad a paedophile or not?

Yes and no.
He wouldn't have been viewed as one by the standards of 7th century Arabia, but by modern standards, yes he would. And in this context, it is difficult to see how he can be idolised as the "perfect human".