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    before i explain why I believe this, I passed my test second time and accept that i should've failed my first one. I also passed my motorcycle test first time too. therefore, Im not saying this out of bitterness or anything etc.

    Reason 1:
    To ensure a fair outcome. if a learner feels that a tests has been unfairly failed, it can be used to address the situation. However, if a second opinion from a more senior examiner does not overturn the result, the candidate will be banned from taking a test for 3 months. this is to ensure they are certain of a unfair/incorrect failure, and not everyone who has failed requests it.

    Reason 2:
    It will better monitor examiners job competency. At the moment, an examiner every so often, has another examiner sit in on a test. However, as they know which test this will be, this will create a "falseness", about the review. Instead, at the end of every quarter, a random selection of tests will be sent to senior examiners and then reviewed. This way, examiners will not know which one(s) will be reviewed. If they are good enough, they have nothing to fear right? they should be on the ball and setting the same standards for every test for do anyway, so should have no problem with this.

    Reason 3:
    To protect either examiners or learners. Ive heard on several occasions that examiners have been attacked, and in some instances examiners have made inappropriate gestures and moves towards female learners. If tests are recorded, the safety of learners and the job safety of examiners will be improved.

    These three reasons seem very reasonable and logical to me. i cant understand why the DSA is so against the filming of tests. Is it because they are scared that their examiners are wrongly failing (and more importantly) wrongly passing tests? I cant think of anyother reason. Could someone, if they know the actual reason why they are so against it on an astonishing scale?
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    before i explain why I believe this, I passed my test second time and accept that i should've failed my first one. I also passed my motorcycle test first time too. therefore, Im not saying this out of bitterness or anything etc.

    Reason 1:
    To ensure a fair outcome. if a learner feels that a tests has been unfairly failed, it can be used to address the situation. However, if a second opinion from a more senior examiner does not overturn the result, the candidate will be banned from taking a test for 3 months. this is to ensure they are certain of a unfair/incorrect failure, and not everyone who has failed requests it.

    Reason 2:
    It will better monitor examiners job competency. At the moment, an examiner every so often, has another examiner sit in on a test. However, as they know which test this will be, this will create a "falseness", about the review. Instead, at the end of every quarter, a random selection of tests will be sent to senior examiners and then reviewed. This way, examiners will not know which one(s) will be reviewed. If they are good enough, they have nothing to fear right? they should be on the ball and setting the same standards for every test for do anyway, so should have no problem with this.

    Reason 3:
    To protect either examiners or learners. Ive heard on several occasions that examiners have been attacked, and in some instances examiners have made inappropriate gestures and moves towards female learners. If tests are recorded, the safety of learners and the job safety of examiners will be improved.

    These three reasons seem very reasonable and logical to me. i cant understand why the DSA is so against the filming of tests. Is it because they are scared that their examiners are wrongly failing (and more importantly) wrongly passing tests? I cant think of anyother reason. Could someone, if they know the actual reason why they are so against it on an astonishing scale?
    Ok, so where would the cameras point?? A camera for the back, inside, and front would not film things at the side - the side being somewhere someone is likely to miss something, which may be the reason they fail.

    If anything, this could have an adverse effect with examiners worrying that if they fail lots of people, their decisions may be overturned, and therefore they might pass people who they're on the sideline about.

    Not only this, but driving tests are taken in either the instructor's car, or your own car, which would mean a significant amount of time would be installing the cameras. That's also a lot of cameras that you need to buy to be able to cover all the different tests that go on at any one time... This would mean fewer tests available each day, which would just massively increase the waiting time, which for some people, is literally 2-3 months, if not longer. Technical issues with the cameras would then cause further delays.

    Also, banning someone from taking a test for 3 months if their 'appeal' is not upheld is absolutely ridiculous. That's like suggesting those who apply for a remark shouldn't be allowed to resit that exam, an absurd idea. Saying that, the number of appeals would be massive. It'd just absolutely waste the DVLA's time.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    Ok, so where would the cameras point?? A camera for the back, inside, and front would not film things at the side - the side being somewhere someone is likely to miss something, which may be the reason they fail.

    If anything, this could have an adverse effect with examiners worrying that if they fail lots of people, their decisions may be overturned, and therefore they might pass people who they're on the sideline about.

    Not only this, but driving tests are taken in either the instructor's car, or your own car, which would mean a significant amount of time would be installing the cameras. That's also a lot of cameras that you need to buy to be able to cover all the different tests that go on at any one time... This would mean fewer tests available each day, which would just massively increase the waiting time, which for some people, is literally 2-3 months, if not longer. Technical issues with the cameras would then cause further delays.

    Also, banning someone from taking a test for 3 months if their 'appeal' is not upheld is absolutely ridiculous. That's like suggesting those who apply for a remark shouldn't be allowed to resit that exam, an absurd idea. Saying that, the number of appeals would be massive. It'd just absolutely waste the DVLA's time.
    Its not hard and doesnt take long to set up a few cameras. Have them record sound too. Could be set up in minutes (just like a satnav when they are included in the driving test). Some driving examiners already have this set up in their car anyway. mine did and so did my sisters and my cousins)

    If it is on the sideline, the examiner can explain why and argue his/her case to why they were failed. It just wont be "Im in a bad mod so dont need to worry, if I dont do my job properly today, and as I will suffer no consequence for it, it doesn't matter". That attitude goes on, believe me. My driving instructor said that attitude goes on, as examiners are put on a pedestal. Its not an argument anyway, as examiners already pass people they are on the sideline about and pass people who should definitely fail. therefore, there is no change.

    The 3 month is just an arbitrary figure. It as just a suggestion, so that not everyone who fails puts a review request in. They have to be certain that they were unfairly failed, and not just bitterly doing it.

    The DVLA and DSA have plenty of time in their hands btw.

    The DSA, I know wont ever allow it as they're scared of what it reveal about their employees. there is no other logical reason. it would improve the safety for examiners and learners alike. It would set higher standards for examiners as it would be better at reviewing their job competency than the current system. A few technical issue to do with cameras is irrelevant and a side issue
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    Its not hard and doesnt take long to set up a few cameras. Have them record sound. Could be set up in minutes (just like a satnav when they are included in the driving test). Some driving examiners already have this set up in their car anyway. mine did and so did my sisters and my cousins)

    If it is on the sideline, the examiner can explain why and argue his/her case to why they were failed. It just wont be "Im in a bad mod so dont need to worry, if I dont do my job properly today, and as I will suffer no consequence for it, it doesn't matter". That attitude goes on, believe me. My driving instructor said that attitude goes on, as examiners are put on a pedestal. Its not an argument anyway, as examiners already pass people they are on the sideline about and pass people who should definitely fail. therefore, there is no change.

    The 3 month is just an arbitrary figure. It as just a suggestion, so that not everyone who fails puts a review request in. They have to be certain that they were unfairly failed, and not just bitterly doing it.

    The DVLA and DSA have plenty of time in their hands btw.
    In your title, you said to film it. - make up your mind. And how the hell is recording sound really going to make any difference. Oh ****, I heard that car honk it's horn so you should've been failed... And, please tell me, how quickly and efficiently you'd be able to set up cameras to give a 360 view, to the effect that you'd confidently be able to say whether an examiner made the right decision or not.

    I really wish I was your instructor - must be absolutely brilliant to know absolutely everything about how all the examiners across the country think and their attitudes. Maybe he should be PM and solve the whole country's problems. You're painting every examiner with the same brush.

    Naturally people are going to want to appeal if they fail, because you're basically giving them a platform to do it.

    I'm assuming you work high up in the DVLA/DSA or have audited them recently then?
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    I feel like there's a lot of logistical issues you haven't thought about with this.

    You'd need a lot of cameras to capture every angle. Forward, behind, instructor, candidate at a minimum. Ideally other things like blind spots or side cameras too. These cameras need to be high quality too, blurry video won't help anyone.

    Then you need to store all the data. Do we need to outfit every car with laptops to store the footage? Will it be backed up centrally? Who's going to be responsible for backing up all that footage? If the cameras have small storage they'll need emptying throughout the day. How long should footage be kept for?

    Where's all the money for this coming from? Who's going to pay for every car to be outfitted, servers to be built to store the data, someone to transfer it from the cars to a server, etc?

    How can an appeals process be absolutely sure an instructor or candidate is right or wrong unless you have cameras in every possible location covering every possible angle? Can you really judge from their perspective without seeing what they're seeing? Maybe the instructor sees something that a candidate would never see from the driving seat. How do you justify that with cameras? Both are correct in said scenario.

    It's a nice idea for catching the odd person but it would cost far too much to implement universally for far too little gain. Which ultimately is why it isn't used.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    In your title, you said to film it. - make up your mind. And how the hell is recording sound really going to make any difference. Oh ****, I heard that car honk it's horn so you should've been failed... And, please tell me, how quickly and efficiently you'd be able to set up cameras to give a 360 view, to the effect that you'd confidently be able to say whether an examiner made the right decision or not.

    I really wish I was your instructor - must be absolutely brilliant to know absolutely everything about how all the examiners across the country think and their attitudes. Maybe he should be PM and solve the whole country's problems. You're painting every examiner with the same brush.

    Naturally people are going to want to appeal if they fail, because you're basically giving them a platform to do it.

    I'm assuming you work high up in the DVLA/DSA or have audited them recently then?
    I meant record sound too, as well as visuals.

    It would take me no more than 5 mins.

    No, I would never work in the public sector. I suppose you do though as youre so quick to defend examiners every single judgement?
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    I meant record sound too, as well as visuals.

    It would take me no more than 5 mins.

    No, I would never work in the public sector. I suppose you do though as youre so quick to defend examiners every single judgement?
    Sound would be fine for the inside for recording any abuse, but totally unnecessary on the exterior.

    For a multitude of cameras to record every angle. Also to remove them. Then also to store the data before the next car. Multiple times a day. Even at an optimistic rate of 5 mins per car, with potentially 15-20 tests at one centre in a day, that's over an hour per day wasted fitting these cameras, which as above said, logistically wouldn't work.

    No I don't, I just find it ridiculous that everyone automatically assumes all examiners are lazy and useless.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    In your title, you said to film it. - make up your mind. And how the hell is recording sound really going to make any difference
    I think the sound is more to catch inappropriate comments or things that are said. But it's a minority, not a majority. Putting cameras in every car to catch that 1 in a million test where the instructor makes a slightly inappropriate remark is stupid.

    Unrelated extra:
    To run a basic number for cost, there's about 350 test centres in England. Assume an average of 3 cars per centre. That's 1050 cars (I'm sure there's far more than that).

    You'd need 4 cameras per car minimum (front, back, driver, instructor), so that's over 4000 cameras.

    Even a basic £50 camera (which may or may not provide good quality) would set the system back £200,000. And that's not even factoring in machines to store the data, people to fit them, etc.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    I think the sound is more to catch inappropriate comments or things that are said. But it's a minority, not a majority. Putting cameras in every car to catch that 1 in a million test where the instructor makes a slightly inappropriate remark is stupid.

    Unrelated extra:
    To run a basic number for cost, there's about 350 test centres in England. Assume an average of 3 cars per centre. That's 1050 cars (I'm sure there's far more than that).

    You'd need 4 cameras per car minimum (front, back, driver, instructor), so that's over 4000 cameras.

    Even a basic £50 camera (which may or may not provide good quality) would set the system back £200,000. And that's not even factoring in machines to store the data, people to fit them, etc.
    What do you mean assume average 3 cars per centre?? A lot, if not most perhaps, use their instructor's car, or their own, which means setting up in each car each time as well, so there's a monetary (time) cost there as well... Would need extra cameras per center in case of one breaking, as well as to have for when other cameras are having the data downloaded from... I'd say £200,000 is an incredibly conservative estimate. They estimate an examiner will conduct 7 tests a day, with centres having up to 3, maybe 4 examiners?? Potentially 70-105 tests per week. Taking into account time to fit all of those cameras to each car which is used for tests, at 5 mins per setup, that's almost 6hours a week per centre wasted.

    To make this effective, I'd say at least 6 cams (for each side as well) - not sure if you'd get the quality on a 50 quid camera(!?) so potentially even more.

    Definitely agree about logistically it not working though.
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    I think this option should be available while you book, however comes at a cost due to the time they have to set up the cameras and the storage used on the device. If the test is failed, drivers pay an additional fee to get it observed and if they overturn the decision and make the person pass, a full refund should be given of the additional fee and the additional pay on the booking website.

    I agree with everyone else this is a pain in the backside, but if they do enforce this. It won't be cheap nor will the be free. And weighing the advantages and disadvantages, even if this was available, most people wouldn't pay extra for the service.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    What do you mean assume average 3 cars per centre?? A lot, if not most perhaps, use their instructor's car, or their own, which means setting up in each car each time as well, so there's a monetary (time) cost there as well... Would need extra cameras per center in case of one breaking, as well as to have for when other cameras are having the data downloaded from... I'd say £200,000 is an incredibly conservative estimate. They estimate an examiner will conduct 7 tests a day, with centres having up to 3, maybe 4 examiners?? Potentially 70-105 tests per week. Taking into account time to fit all of those cameras to each car which is used for tests, at 5 mins per setup, that's almost 6hours a week per centre wasted.

    To make this effective, I'd say at least 6 cams (for each side as well) - not sure if you'd get the quality on a 50 quid camera(!?) so potentially even more.

    Definitely agree about logistically it not working though.
    Ah I'm an idiot and completely forgot that most people use their own instructors car.

    At this point we're probably looking at far more cars.

    Which brings up another issue. How do you make sure everyone has the same system? Independent instructors and even different companies will have different standards. Are test centres fitting and removing cameras?

    £200,000 was an extremely optimistic estimate to demonstrate just how ineffective this is from a cost logistic point of view. To get it all set up properly you're talking millions.

    And that's when it works of course
 
 
 
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