Students charged 40 pounds for module failures Watch

bluenoxid
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#21
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I want to reiterate to everyone on this thread that we have not had my important question clarified and we are going over old ground.

For a resit you have to take into account, costs of setting the exam, invigilating it and marking it. Might not seem much, but if there are a few invigilators in the rooms the bill adds up.
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GuyUK
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My uni charges £65 per failed module
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cutcopy
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(Original post by Noxid)
And most of the other universities manage to sort this by reducing the number of marks available or only award them a pass. Blatant plagiarism is wrong but the word count is hardly that important. We all make little mistakes or miss deadlines.



The university receives the money anyway through the £3,000 tuition fee.

Actually I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here.

OP can you clarify if you paid the money for the resit, or paid the money as a standalone fine?

If its a resit ignore all of my posts, you should be charged for resits (and £40 is not bad). If its a standalone fine my points stand.
No, I haven't paid yet. The re-submission date for work is 21st August. We have to post off any documents that are to be reassessed. The fee is 40, regardless of how, or what you have failed. 150 words below the word count is enough to warrant charging 40 pound, they think. No, I have not yet paid it. The 40 pound, they say, is for 'administation costs'.

To the people who are saying 'you were an arse for messing about, it's fair, it puts students in places' - don't be so blindly dogmatic. We were told nothing of any sort of re-submission fee, not at any point before our exams/deadline dates. The fee they are charging students, and there are many students who are being charged it for the smallest reasons, seems unfair to all. I transferred from a different uni last year. They gave you a chance to re-submit your work, albeit once, for free. After that, it was ten pound per module that you failed. THAT, I think, is fair.

It is not a good way to increase motivation, because now people just feel like they're being ripped off.

I don't think I'm going to win this case anyhow - no matter how much I ***** and whine. What I am going to do, is going to request (well, demand) thorough information on what these 'administration costs' are, where the 40 pound comes from, and how the university justifies it. I'm then going write an article for BBC Leeds (I write for their student diaries section) detailing how the university treats students like cash resources. As one person said, my university may as well be a bank.

Not very thrillied about the whole situation. But what can you do? I have to go through to the second year.
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ma2k5
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(Original post by Paeony)
Ethically the uni doesn't 'owe' you anything - £3000 doesn't nearly cover the cost of educating one student, when you take into account tutors, other academic staff, buildings maintenance, stocking the library, cleaners, a subsidised bar/canteen, funding the union etc etc. Most universities are run at a loss, and tend only to make money from the outside events they get in. They do NOT make a massive profit from students, contrary to what most people here seem to think.

You have to pay to retake a GCSE or A-Level, why not a degree module? As I said, if someone has genuine extenuating circumstances then of course they shouldn't pay, and, if someone has worked (proven say by looking at attendance records, class participation, marks in assesments etc) then they shouldn't have to pay either. But someone who has knowingly not handed work in on time, or failed an exam through not attending classes or not bothering, welll why should they get a 'free' retake? In the real world your actions (or lack thereof) bring about consequences. You're an adult at uni, you should accept that if you don't want to work, you're going to have to face some consequences from that.

It's not being close minded and nit-picking. Funding, even if you have paid something towards it, is always going to be limited. If a student has failed (through their own laziness) to adhere to the conditions of the module, then why should everyone else subsidise it? If it is costing the uni £40 a throw, then ten of those will cost £400. I'd much rather that money went into the ALF to help someone who really did want to learn.

Also, your post seems to suggest that you're owed a retake because you've paid fees ... why not just go further and say you're 'owed' a pass on your degree just because you've paid? It's not a huge leap and seems to be an attitude that a lot of students have now.

edit: I've just graduated, and I've had at least two group projects per year. They're not that rare.
Theres so many flaws in this its hard to believe. University is a business - they won't go into debt to educate public - sorry people arn't that nice. If a uni is in debt thats because of their own wrong doings in business. To even think that teaching students does not rake in profit is insane and mad.

Those charges are lets say - an adon for profits.

Kind of how banks, despite earniny millions/hour - added charges for withdrawing your cash and other stuff - at like 15x+ the actual cost of whats required. Even the rich are greedy.
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Paeony
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I didn't accuse you of messing about - I personally think that being charged for a resit for being 150 words under is a bit unfair (although didn't you know that you were under?) However, I do think that you should be charged for a resit IF you have messed about.

Also, you cannot be charged a fee if you weren't told about it - if if it wasn't published anywhere, like in the module handbook, then it isn't fair. BUT this still doesn't change the way I feel about it. If I'd failed my A-Levels, I would have had to pay for a resit. If I'm late paying a bill, I face a charge. It's the way the world works, why should uni be any different?
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bluenoxid
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So you are paying for resubmitting it?

Its a steep fine and for what you have done, not really standard practice as such. I can understand them pulling you up for it, but to charge £40 (and then you will also have to pay P+P) for marking a piece of work is steep

In all honesty, all you can do is pay the fee. I guess you could push your department for a refund of some of the money considering the work involved. I would also push your department to make it clearer for students that steep fees will occur if modules are failed.

As one person said, my university may as well be a bank.
Yeah, my fee is in the post
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Paeony
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(Original post by ma2k5)
Theres so many flaws in this its hard to believe. University is a business - they won't go into debt to educate public - sorry people arn't that nice. If a uni is in debt thats because of their own wrong doings in business. To even think that teaching students does not rake in profit is insane and mad.

Those charges are lets say - an adon for profits.

Kind of how banks, despite earniny millions/hour - added charges for withdrawing your cash and other stuff - at like 15x+ the actual cost of whats required. Even the rich are greedy.
Universities ARE NOT businesses - that's why most are registered as charities. Some do run businesses on the side (my own did), and this makes them some money, but not a lot. Of course it costs money to educate students! But where on earth do you think that money comes from? The public education system in this country has been heavily subsidised by the government for a long time, and that includes universities. The vast majority of universities HAVE NOT made a profit for a long time - they have only been able to charge fees for a few years so where on earth do you think the money came from before that? Answer: it didn't come from anywhere except a huge overdraft. A lot of universites are only just pulling themselves out of debt.

I'll give you an example. My partner studied in the states for a semester. I'f he'd paid for that, it would have cost him $20,000 just for that one semester. That's (very roughly) £10,000 for twelve weeks of teaching and board. The uni he studied at was very well endowed, was run like a business and did it very well - there certainly weren't any of the funding issues that I've seen at universities in the UK. How can you possibly think that the UK equivalent, of £1,500 per semester, can possibly mean that a UK university is making a profit on an undergrad? (OK, that's just for tuition but my argument still stands). I was personally told by a tutor when we were discussing post-grad options, that universities are not *that* interested in undergrads because they are not profitable. Go to any university as a high level post-grad and you'll see what I mean. It's the money that you can bring into a uni through research that they're intersted in and that will make them some serious cash, not the fees charged to undergrads.
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AT82
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Very good idea, it might actually make the lazy c words who just go to 'uni' for 'laff' do some work.

I think it would have to depend on the module though, some are impossible to fail if you try but some are very very difficult to even pass.
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ma2k5
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Fining for modules is not an incentive for students to take studies seriously. People, you need to see the whole thing more logically. If someone is paying £3000 a year to a University and still messes around - Statisticall we can conclude that they won't suddenly jump to the books because they issued a £40 fine per resit (Equivilant to 1.3% of the total cost per module). What it will do is make some more enjoyable expenditures for the University!

If you think this is bad - people in my college were charged £1-£5 for being late to college. Some would think - this incentive was to encourage students to arrive on time? This would be too naive though.

Firstly, threats of expulsion or detentions are MORE than enough for people to avoid getting lates - I know this for a fact, seeing my brothers/sisters always rushing talking worried about getting an hour detention.

Secondly, this will encourage students who was on way to being late - to just not ATTEND to avoid paying the fee!

This truly was just a way to make money, the college was quite cheap - I mean I do believe it once had a paper shortage :O! You being late at the end of the day WILL not financially trouble the college, its bogus fining for money!
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Paeony
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You being late will trouble the college. If you're late, it'll be classed as an 'unauthorised absence' - hence, the college is not meeing it's targets for absence and truancy. Therefore, the college will be given less money from a government who allocates money to schools based on performance. Students being late = poor performance on the part of the college = less money to the college. I've spent three years studying education policy so I think I know what I'm talking about.
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ma2k5
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(Original post by Paeony)
You being late will trouble the college. If you're late, it'll be classed as 'absent' - hence, the college is not meeing it's targets for absence and truancy. Therefore, the college will be given less money from a government who allocates money to schools based on performance. Students being late = poor performance on the part of the college = less money to the college. I've spent three years studying education policy so I think I know what I'm talking about.
My college was one of the worst - Lets say average grade was like DDE?

My college gets alot of funding - Seeing as your educated in the policy - you should have an understanding how easy you can play the system?

I had a good relationship with my headteacher, he was one of those cool/hip guys - that you can really get along with. Lets just say, to make sure the money comes in, all he did was take them on till Januarish then kicked them off (expelled). Simple it was, maybe even morally wrong, but business is business. This fee nonsense had nothing to do with getting paid or not.

My college, despite having alot of crap going on, managed to exceed its targets - Its not hard you know if you have common sense? Bypassing system = easy and charging students wasn't what got them it. It did however enable them to buy paper which they should have had anyway - fair on students ofcourse!
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cutcopy
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#32
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(Original post by AT82)
Very good idea, it might actually make the lazy c words who just go to 'uni' for 'laff' do some work.
Any what about those of us who have actually done very well throughout the year? Achieved marks mostly in the 60-70% bracket? Achieved near perfect marks in individual modules (shorthand exam)?

Yeah, I was 150 words short. I didn't think they would bloody fail me on it. I didn't think they would be charging me 40 quid to add 150 words onto the end of an essay and re-port it.

However, yes, I am going to pay the fine (sorry, can't remember who asked, I"m having a bit of a drink-beer-and-rant session). Because really, there's ****** all else I can do, is there?
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ma2k5
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(Original post by Digitiser)
Any what about those of us who have actually done very well throughout the year? Achieved marks mostly in the 60-70% bracket? Achieved near perfect marks in individual modules (shorthand exam)?

Yeah, I was 150 words short. I didn't think they would bloody fail me on it. I didn't think they would be charging me 40 quid to add 150 words onto the end of an essay and re-port it.

However, yes, I am going to pay the fine (sorry, can't remember who asked, I"m having a bit of a drink-beer-and-rant session). Because really, there's ****** all else I can do, is there?
Cash is king - Its the sad reality!
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Paeony
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Your college would also have got money on the exam passes, and the number of students who complete courses. If the bad students weren't kicked off, your college (that couldn't afford paper in one of your previous posts) would have been able to get more money.

Of course it's easy to play the system - people like your 'cool/hip' headmaster are one of the reasons why the education system in this country is in chaos. However, a 'college' dealing with immature 16 year olds is a slightly different matter to a university where all of the students are 'adults'. In the adult world, you mess up and you generally have to pay some kind of fine - if I don't pay my phone bill, I get charged £5 for every letter I'm sent. So ... as an adult I make sure I pay my phone bill.

Also, given that the average grade at your college was DDE, its targets would have been set accordingly - ever heard of 'value added'? As my studies in policy have shown, a failing school will be given a low target. It passes, and it's no longer failing. I suspect it would have been the same at your college. The targets would never have been that high.
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cutcopy
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(Original post by ma2k5)
Cash is king - Its the sad reality!
If I don't find a better post before the night is up, which I doubt I will, I'll rep this, lol. You hit the nail on the head.
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Sephiroth
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(Original post by Digitiser)
Yeah, I was 150 words short. I didn't think they would bloody fail me on it. I didn't think they would be charging me 40 quid to add 150 words onto the end of an essay and re-port it.
I'm still wondering about this word count. How many words did you have to write? Are they expecting you to get exactly that amount? That's quite harsh if so.
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ma2k5
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Your college would also have got money on the exam passes
I would like to elaborate on how my college went on about this.

Firstly, everone was made to do a mock test - if they failed - they won't get entered into actual exam - having already cashed in the cash for that student they don't really care much.

But, they went 1 more step ahead, when the actual exams were done, they was aggregated on basis they passed - so on official statistics it looked much better than what it really was.

As for your call on why education is in chaos - Im not here to argue on that - I am just stating that emphasis is on profit, not on recovering costs (as they should already naturally be in profit). Even if your well off, having more money isnt going to hurt you.

This college was very new - but it was given targets similar to schools/colleges around the area. As I mentioned, it met the target NOT because they was low, but because of system cheats - aka business incentives.

My college was actually ranked higher than a very prestigious college - due to statistic manipulation - Which was pretty funny!

Why would'nt they do it though, there business depends on students going there, they gotta look good for the students you know, business isnt fair, its a dog eat dog world. If you can milk some extra cash some way or another, tell me one good reason not to other than morale/ethics?

If I don't find a better post before the night is up, which I doubt I will, I'll rep this, lol. You hit the nail on the head.
Cool :P
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Paeony
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I don't really understand your argument - so it's ok for your college to take advantage of the system to get more money, but then it's not ok for a uni to do that, just because you have to pay for it out of your own pocket, rather than indirectly through taxes?

If 'cash is king' then why shouldn't uni start milking the cash cow of students too? If a uni is a business, as you believe it to be, then why can't they make money like other businesses, by fining people who fail to adhere to their rules?
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ma2k5
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so it's ok for your college to take advantage of the system to get more money, but then it's not ok for a uni to do that
You are right, you don't understand the arguement - how on Earth did I say it was okay? I was merely explaining why they do it and why they wouldn't do otherwise. It was an example showing THAT charges/system abuse is not a required thing to do to keep up with expenses as you make it seem like, or even as incentives OTHER than self-profit. Its quite simple what Im stating.
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cutcopy
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(Original post by Sephiroth)
I'm still wondering about this word count. How many words did you have to write? Are they expecting you to get exactly that amount? That's quite harsh if so.
The work to pass the module was split into several components, around 7.

The one I failed, was '600 word feature'. I did 450.

Now, the reason I was lax on word count, was because the module itself was a shambles. Lecturers never turning up, people never turning up, groups being disorganised - the module was basically tacked onto the end of the year to give arts students something to do whilst the other uni students were on placement.

They have failed me on the one piece of work, which was 'a 600 word feature' (I study journalism). I have friends on the same course who have suffered the same fate for similarly paltry reasons. A friend of mine was failed because her interview was apparently too short..

Bah. Pah. I'm sick of paying this bloody college fee's! And I'm not talking about official fee's! 25 quid for lost keys. 5 quid for lost ID card. Parking fines. 'Administration' fines for failed modules. The list is endless! It's supposed to be a bloody Chrsitian university!

Actually, come to think about it, if the church is behind this..



p.s. no offence to Christians, as I occasionally consider myself one. So tuck your neg rep back in, cheers.
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