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Legalising heroin (and possibly other illegal ones) watch

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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Taxes don't contribute to the economy. By taxing alcohol or tobacco, the government is simply redistributing wealth from people who use those products to the general population. The national income isn't increased by a single penny. If people drop out of the work force, then the national income goes down by the wages they're no longer making.

    Edit: I thought I'd add this for the leftists here: Who uses alcohol and cigarettes most, the poor or the rich? Who spends a larger portion of their income on those things? The answer is obvious. Alcohol and tobacco taxes take money from the poor and give it to the general population. They are highly regressive taxes.
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    But I don't believe that pharmaceuticals should sell legalised heroin to the general public. It should only be available free on the NHS.
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    (Original post by rali2000)
    But I don't believe that pharmaceuticals should sell legalised heroin to the general public. It should only be available free on the NHS.
    What do you think happens to the demand for a product that is free?
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    ^^ Well actually if the good is a bad (which seems pretty obvious to most people), demand would be 0.

    I don't think the thing stopping most of the population taking heroin is the price. The vast majority of the population wouldn't take it even if you paid them.

    What I'm driving at is that I don't think reducing the price to 0 will significantly affect the number of users - most people know heroin is terrible for them. Conceivably a few might try it for a dare, that is possible. But starving the criminal underworld of a major source of income - and removing all the crime addicts commit to procure heroin currently - seems like a fair trade off for this. Especially since to get heroin the addicts will have to go to a medical centre where presumably they can get advice and support.
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    I may be wrong but I believe most countries that have legalised or decriminalised a previously controlled substance see a spike in demand immediately after followed by a drop to at or below pre-legalised levels?
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    (Original post by kizer)
    ^^ Well actually if the good is a bad (which seems pretty obvious to most people), demand would be 0.
    It's not a bad. People actually want it.

    (Original post by andy5788)
    I may be wrong but I believe most countries that have legalised or decriminalised a previously controlled substance see a spike in demand immediately after followed by a drop to at or below pre-legalised levels?
    There is a spike and a drop, but the drop doesn't decrease to the pre-legalization level.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    It's not a bad. People actually want it.

    A TINY minority of the population.

    Do you really think price and/or illegality is what is putting people off now?

    Here's an argument then:

    1) The vast majority of people currently NOT doing heroin see it as a bad (i.e would not want to do it even if free and legal).

    2) There are no costs associated with not taking heroin.

    3) Given the choice, people will not take a bad if there are not costs assoiated with not doing so.

    THEREFORE

    4) The vast majority of people not taking heroin will not do it even if it is free and legal.



    We might add that making heroin free and legal will lead to a large social benefit (basically the effect on crime + the health of those taking it).
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    (Original post by kizer)
    ^^ Well actually if the good is a bad (which seems pretty obvious to most people), demand would be 0.

    I don't think the thing stopping most of the population taking heroin is the price. The vast majority of the population wouldn't take it even if you paid them.

    What I'm driving at is that I don't think reducing the price to 0 will significantly affect the number of users - most people know heroin is terrible for them. Conceivably a few might try it for a dare, that is possible. But starving the criminal underworld of a major source of income - and removing all the crime addicts commit to procure heroin currently - seems like a fair trade off for this. Especially since to get heroin the addicts will have to go to a medical centre where presumably they can get advice and support.
    I think you're precisely right here. Anyone who really wants to take heroin is able to - it's really not that hard to get hold of if you are so inclined. All that legalisation would do is allow legitimate companies to supply heroin on the market (and you've gotta be crazy if you think you'll suddenly be able to buy it in Tesco). Once the ridiculously high profit margin has disappeared and heroin producers are allowed to resolve disputes through legal ways, all the violence will vanish. Compare the number of deaths caused by beer producers before, during, and after Prohibition if you don't believe me.
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    I'm all for legalisation. It'll stop the crime associated with it, and, like someone said, let the addicts be the addicts.

    ... According to William S. Burroughs, you have to take heroin twice a day for 1-2 months to get addicted.

    I'd try it.
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    (Original post by kizer)
    A TINY minority of the population.

    Do you really think price and/or illegality is what is putting people off now?

    Here's an argument then:

    1) The vast majority of people currently NOT doing heroin see it as a bad (i.e would not want to do it even if free and legal).

    2) There are no costs associated with not taking heroin.

    3) Given the choice, people will not take a bad if there are not costs assoiated with not doing so.

    THEREFORE

    4) The vast majority of people not taking heroin will not do it even if it is free and legal.



    We might add that making heroin free and legal will lead to a large social benefit (basically the effect on crime + the health of those taking it).
    I don't think you understand what a bad is; a bad is something that decreases utility with every additional unit. A product that's not liked by most people is not a bad. Since the only people who'd get heroin are the ones who want it, it would be a good for them. Your argument simply makes no sense.

    (Original post by DrunkHamster)
    I think you're precisely right here. Anyone who really wants to take heroin is able to - it's really not that hard to get hold of if you are so inclined. All that legalisation would do is allow legitimate companies to supply heroin on the market (and you've gotta be crazy if you think you'll suddenly be able to buy it in Tesco). Once the ridiculously high profit margin has disappeared and heroin producers are allowed to resolve disputes through legal ways, all the violence will vanish. Compare the number of deaths caused by beer producers before, during, and after Prohibition if you don't believe me.
    That's nonsense. Are you really saying that there are no people who'd be willing to try heroin if it was cheaper and if there was no legal risk associated with it? Does capitalism magically stop working when it comes to drugs?

    (Original post by BornUnderPunches)
    I'm all for legalisation. It'll stop the crime associated with it, and, like someone said, let the addicts be the addicts.

    ... According to William S. Burroughs, you have to take heroin twice a day for 1-2 months to get addicted.

    I'd try it.
    Really? So by making it legal, people will magically stop committing crimes while high? People will magically stop committing crimes as a result of the mental imbalance the drug causes in the long term?
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    Please try and actually consider my argument rather than accuse me of not knowing what a bad is.

    You have said more than once in this thread that you think that making heroin free and legal will significantly increase the numbers of people taking it. I am arguing against that assertion on the basis that out [B]of those people not currently taking the drug, the VAST majority view heroin as a bad and thus would not take it even if free and legal (the person who posted above you being one of the tiny minorty). Therefore, making heroin free and legal will not significantly raise the number of heroin users.[/B

    Please tell me exactly what part in bold you disagree with, if any.
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    imo i think that heroin should be one of the only drugs that should never be legalised. this may just be my unresearched view, but it seems to me at first glance that it is near impossible to take it in moderation and not become an addict unlike most other drugs. thus people need to be protected from themselves.

    also what is the point of making it free? surely it should still cost money but the price should be low enough that it is simply not worth producing/dealing the drug, thus eliminating the crime element associated with it, yet still not making it a free for all. you dont see people selling home made cigarettes and alcohol on the streets do you? perhaps what money made from it should go straight back into treating addicts?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    That's nonsense. Are you really saying that there are no people who'd be willing to try heroin if it was cheaper and if there was no legal risk associated with it? Does capitalism magically stop working when it comes to drugs?
    No, he (and I) are saying there are a tiny amount of people who would try heroin, i.e. not enough to significantly affect how many net users there. Right now it is free and legal for me to go outside, pick up some dog turd, take it home and eat it. Do I? Same principle.

    Frankly losing the criminal allure of the drug, and forcing users to pick it up in a sanitised, professional environment may reduce the number of users.


    Really? So by making it legal, people will magically stop committing crimes while high? People will magically stop committing crimes as a result of the mental imbalance the drug causes in the long term?
    AFAIK most crimes committed by heroin addicts are the result of trying to get enough money to buy more heroin (i.e. theft and robbery). There is no magic about it - make it free and the incentive to commit those crimes vanishes. And faced with competition selling at price 0, heroin dealers immediately go out of business too, cutting funding to gangs and the criminal underworld.

    Finally, there is the obvious point that we decriminalise the law-abiding heroin users (aside from their heroin use) themselves, which given that their actions are self-regarding appears to be a good thing to me.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)

    That's nonsense. Are you really saying that there are no people who'd be willing to try heroin if it was cheaper and if there was no legal risk associated with it? Does capitalism magically stop working when it comes to drugs?
    Of course I'm not saying that nobody would try heroin if it suddenly became legal, just that you're massively overstating the problem. The reason that most people don't do heroin is not because of the high price or the relative difficulties of obtaining it or the fact that it's illegal - the reason that most people don't do heroin is because they fully realise that it could easily **** up their life. Why would that change in a free market?


    Really? So by making it legal, people will magically stop committing crimes while high? People will magically stop committing crimes as a result of the mental imbalance the drug causes in the long term?
    This is bull**** I'm afraid. Have you ever seen people on smack? I have. Wikipedia is about right when it says it results in "euphoria, nervousness, relaxation, drowsiness, or sleepiness". Now are you honestly trying to tell me that the majority of crimes committed because of heroin are due to people in a state of euphoria, as opposed to people having to steal in order to pay for their addiction and drug dealers operating outside of the law trying to maintain their market share through violent means?
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    (Original post by kizer)
    Please try and actually consider my argument rather than accuse me of not knowing what a bad is.

    You have said more than once in this thread that you think that making heroin free and legal will significantly increase the numbers of people taking it. I am arguing against that assertion on the basis that out [B]of those people not currently taking the drug, the VAST majority view heroin as a bad and thus would not take it even if free and legal (the person who posted above you being one of the tiny minorty). Therefore, making heroin free and legal will not significantly raise the number of heroin users.[/B

    Please tell me exactly what part in bold you disagree with, if any.
    How vast is this majority?

    A tiny minority of people who don't use heroin might still be more people than all the heroin users out there.
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    (Original post by rich2606)
    imo i think that heroin should be one of the only drugs that should never be legalised. this may just be my unresearched view, but it seems to me at first glance that it is near impossible to take it in moderation and not become an addict unlike most other drugs. thus people need to be protected from themselves.

    also what is the point of making it free? surely it should still cost money but the price should be low enough that it is simply not worth producing/dealing the drug, thus eliminating the crime element associated with it, yet still not making it a free for all. you dont see people selling home made cigarettes and alcohol on the streets do you? perhaps what money made from it should go straight back into treating addicts?

    No this is wrong. The other crime element from heroin is the addicts committing crime themselves to fund their habit, which is one of the reasons making it free is a good idea. The other is to get people in to hospitals/medical centres where they can be advised, warned and supported.
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    (Original post by generalebriety)
    How vast is this majority?

    A tiny minority of people who don't use heroin might still be more people than all the heroin users out there.

    Well, I don't know. Put it like this - in my entire life I have never come across or even heard of anyone who wasn't doing heroin, and the reason for them not doing it was the illegality and/or price. The sort of people who would want to try heroin are almost certain to have a low disregard for the law anyway. And at least for the first couple of times they take it, price is unlikely to be the barrier either. It BECOMES the barrier once you are hooked.

    Putting that together, then I think it is fair enough for me to say the majority is so vast that overally usage levels will not be drastically affected.
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    well, ok, how much does it cost to get a load of heroin? i have no idea, but i've heard of rock stars having a $200-$500 a day habit, an alcoholic would be spending significantly less for their addiction, so much so that they dont have to steal to fund it. but i cant be sure unless i have numbers that arent just random guesses
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    Really? So by making it legal, people will magically stop committing crimes while high? People will magically stop committing crimes as a result of the mental imbalance the drug causes in the long term?
    Tbh the only two biggies I can think of for commiting crimes while actually high are alcohol drinkers and cocaine snorters. In most other cases crime is commited in order to pay for drugs to get high, not while actually high.
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    To add to this, let me say that one reason cannabis use is so widespread is because people are unsure whether it is really that bad for you, especially in the short term. For cigarrettes, while people know it is bad for you, they tend to minimise long term risks in their decision making.

    However I would venture that nigh on everyone knows that heroin is terrible for you, even in the short term.
 
 
 
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