Legalise heroin?! Watch

L i b
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Hurricane_Herd)
no more so typified by celebrity users such as pete doherty.
He's got a successful music career, is dating a supermodel, probably has a decent amount of cash tucked away somewhere, legions of adoring fans, is apparently amongst the top ten 'coolest' people in the world every year (should you believe the NME... :p:) and despite overwhelming odds seems to have successfully dodged the jail time and again.

If you're looking for examples of the problems of drug addiction, Mr Doherty is probably the worst angle you can take.
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Hurricane_Herd
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Libertin du Nord)
He's got a successful music career, is dating a supermodel, probably has a decent amount of cash tucked away somewhere, legions of adoring fans, is apparently amongst the top ten 'coolest' people in the world (should you believe the NME... :p:) and despite overwhelming odds seems to have successfully dodged the jail time and again.

If you're looking for examples of the problems of drug addiction, Mr Doherty is probably the worst angle you can take.

having read his autobiography and various books about him, and reading the lyrics to his songs which i would say can only be descriped as a cry out for help about his life. i beg to differ.
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L i b
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#23
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(Original post by Hurricane_Herd)
having read his autobiography and various books about him, and reading the lyrics to his songs which i would say can only be descriped as a cry out for help about his life. i beg to differ.
Oh well, I've never been one for delving too far into the psyche, but he certainly appears on the surface to be in a fairly desirable position. I shall yield to your superior knowledge, however.
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Sephiroth
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#24
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(Original post by Libertin du Nord)
So basically the state becomes nothing more than a 'consequence' - someone bigger than you who might want to do nasty things to you for no reason?

You make it sound like it's somehow a junkie's fault they if they get locked up or die as a result of the government's action. Is it a girl's fault if she wears a skirt and ends up getting raped? I think not.
The laws are there to protect us from others, or ourselves. One could say criminalising drugs does the opposite because of all the side effects that come with drug dealing and acquiring the money to purchase them. But unless the drug was available legally for free then people would still rob homes and such to get money to buy the drug. It would just remove the dealing side of it, where more serious crimes are usually attached.

That sounds good in theory, until you think about the effects on the health system. More people needing treatment for mental health or other drug related illnesses and problems. Then consider the idea that these people may be incapable of working and you have further cost to the tax payer as they claim benefits.

Of course this is still true for illegal drug takers, but my logic suggests drug taking would increase if legalised and access to it was easy. A lot of people who have never tried them may currently be put off now at the idea of A) Having to get mixed up with drug dealers and B) Breaking the law. Remove these factors and that would get them to try it.

Another issue to having easy access is the factor of children getting hold of their daddy's Heroin or whatever else. I'm sure we'd agree it should be the responsibility of the parent to keep it well away from the child, but in reality a lot of parents aren't smart and would either forget to put it away or leave it somewhere they assume the child won't find it. A child would be more likely to over-dose on it than an adult since they would not know what it's for, or if they did know what it's for they would not know their limits.

As for the girl in the skirt, she knows she is taking a risk but a rapist is hardly there to protect her from the skirt.

(Original post by Richy_Boi)
When I was 16, a substance being illegal didn't stop us from getting hold of it if we wanted.

Drugs are easy to get hold of. I don't think a night in the cells is the reason most teens don't use drugs...
The vast majority of 16 year olds don't know drug dealers, it would be quite worrying if so. If the drug was legalised anyone would be able to get hold of it easily, which would mean more people trying it and getting addicted.

Now as has been mentioned, controlling it in the way that you have to get it through a pharmacy or only giving it to addicts for their safety then that would work.
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SyncMaster710
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#25
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Lol, the logic that if it is legal will make people go out and take it, as opposed to not when illegal is tosh in my books. I mean I was i a head shop the other day, was looking at this new liquid stuff from Thailand (cant remember its name) and asked the bloke about it, as we were genuinely interested about it, then he started explaining it, mentioned the word opiutes, tracing it up foil if you want etc and then made the decision to not buy it. That was legal. You dont see everyone going out buying it do you? I decided not to as I would feel uncomfortable taking it, after he explained it to me.... now you don't exactly get drug dealers doing the same do you nor is everyone buying the drug?!
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generalebriety
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#26
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I have only skimmed this thread so far (may come back and give a proper answer later) but I'm entirely in agreement with Lib North right now.
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generalebriety
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#27
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(Original post by The Anthropologist)
It's my firm belief that illegal drugs should stay illegal. They can end lives, ruin families and waste money. This is one of the most dangerous of drugs and that's why I'm confused as to why countries like Switzerland would want it to be legalized?
Alcohol...
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Cyril Sneer's Nose
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#28
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Who cares, it wont affect my smack habit. Hopefully this will lead to needles being available on prescription. Mine tend to get a bit dirty after the 10th or 14th injection.
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Sephiroth
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#29
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(Original post by SyncMaster710)
Lol, the logic that if it is legal will make people go out and take it, as opposed to not when illegal is tosh in my books. I mean I was i a head shop the other day, was looking at this new liquid stuff from Thailand (cant remember its name) and asked the bloke about it, as we were genuinely interested about it, then he started explaining it, mentioned the word opiutes, tracing it up foil if you want etc and then made the decision to not buy it. That was legal. You dont see everyone going out buying it do you? I decided not to as I would feel uncomfortable taking it, after he explained it to me.... now you don't exactly get drug dealers doing the same do you nor is everyone buying the drug?!
It's impossible to know for sure, but I am sure if tobacco wasn't so easily available and legal there wouldn't be anywhere near as many smokers. If you had to go to a drug dealer for tobacco and break the law smoking it then it's not something you would consider doing at 16, or even 12 as some like to start these days. Same for alcohol. As a drinker, I can say I wouldn't risk going to jail and getting messed up with drug dealers just to get hold of it.

Now I'm sure some people would post here saying they would happily break the law to smoke or drink if that's what it came to, but we've been brought up in a society where these things are legal and easy to get hold of so it's easy to say that. However, if society treated these two drugs the same as Cannabis or Heroin and you had been brought up with that view then what would suddenly make a person want to smoke tobacco over cannabis for example?
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generalebriety
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#30
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(Original post by The Anthropologist)
I did not objectively state that it was "The" most dangerous, so I'm not entirely sure what you are attempting to infer my friend?
If you're gonna pick holes in my argument, at least tell me what holes you're picking? Alcohol also ruins lives, is one of the most dangerous blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, but I bet you'd be strongly against making that illegal. Or at least, if you wouldn't, you're a bit of a prude, because most people would.
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Bubblebee
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#31
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Speaking as someone who has lost a friend to the darker London scene I'm with Lib. If it was available to an addict from somewhere clean and with a measured ammount and not cut with brick dust or horse tranqs then alot less people would die.
This isn't about teenagers going into the newsagents 'Oi mate, I'll 'ave 20 Mayfair, a bottle of vodka and how much is your smack?' It's about people who are already users who can get real help without resorting to methadone or coming off cold turkey. It's a pointless argument on here anyway, tsr is full of middle-class tory gits who if the higher ups told them ****ting was banned they'd all rush to get their arses sewn up.
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L i b
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#32
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(Original post by Sephiroth)
The laws are there to protect us from others, or ourselves. One could say criminalising drugs does the opposite because of all the side effects that come with drug dealing and acquiring the money to purchase them. But unless the drug was available legally for free then people would still rob homes and such to get money to buy the drug.
It doesn't need to be free. Alcoholics don't rob houses, generally speaking. However the fact is that criminalisation has enabled MASSIVELY over-inflated prices to be charged for what is, at the end of the day, a bit of refined poppy.

Market rates would be fine.

That sounds good in theory, until you think about the effects on the health system. More people needing treatment for mental health or other drug related illnesses and problems. Then consider the idea that these people may be incapable of working and you have further cost to the tax payer as they claim benefits.
People don't have to work, and as far as I'm concerned they can not work for any reason they fancy.

I don't like this sort of backdoor fascism that leads to people thinking that because we have a welfare state and an NHS that they can dictate behaviour to others.

Of course this is still true for illegal drug takers, but my logic suggests drug taking would increase if legalised and access to it was easy. A lot of people who have never tried them may currently be put off now at the idea of A) Having to get mixed up with drug dealers and B) Breaking the law. Remove these factors and that would get them to try it.
Access to drugs is already very easy. As for the two factors, I only believe that number 1 is in any way significant; but it's rather outweighed by the flip-side of the coin: that we're forcing people to deal with drug dealers when they don't want to.

Another issue to having easy access is the factor of children getting hold of their daddy's Heroin or whatever else.
Happens already, I'm afraid. Since heroin, unlike methadone - already available free on the NHS - is not in liquid form, I imagine the danger would be less.

As for the girl in the skirt, she knows she is taking a risk but a rapist is hardly there to protect her from the skirt.
As you can see, I rather countered that point in another post.

The vast majority of 16 year olds don't know drug dealers, it would be quite worrying if so. If the drug was legalised anyone would be able to get hold of it easily, which would mean more people trying it and getting addicted.
I'm not suggesting giving it to children.

As for drug dealers, I think you underestimate the modern world. There were a good few "drug dealers" at my school, supplying the institution's cannabis needs.

But if you did want it, it'd be easy enough to find. I was offered an assortment of damn near every drug on earth when I was sixteen simply by standing in Buchanan Street (Glasgow's main shopping street, incidentally) at 3.30am.


Now as has been mentioned, controlling it in the way that you have to get it through a pharmacy or only giving it to addicts for their safety then that would work.
What's to stop me saying I'm an addict? Or indeed, getting one dose illegally then throwing myself onto the state for it?
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generalebriety
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#33
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(Original post by The Anthropologist)
I'm not "picking holes" in your argument, I'm merely expressing my apparent unorthodox view that Heroin is also a deadly/deadlier drug, without expressing any wishes for a belligerent outcome. Most families fall apart because fathers/mothers/relatives become indifferent to the obvious fact they are addicted. One can kill themselves once, and only once with an O.D., (in a safe environment) but can they kill themselves only once with alcohol (in a similar environment). I would certainly find such a thing most hard as it would have to involve a great deal of rapaciousness. I'm regretful if i have caused such ill-feeling in expressing my opinions on the matter.
Of course you can. You can die from alcohol poisoning or in a fight (and alcohol would promote fights in pubs, whereas heroin wouldn't). I suspect you're misusing the word "rapaciousness", so I don't really know what you're on about, but I'm guessing you mean you'd have to drink a lot? Well, yes you would. But people do. So, on that note: let's make alcohol illegal!

Or maybe accept that sometimes the law contradicts itself.
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L i b
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#34
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(Original post by SyncMaster710)
Lol, the logic that if it is legal will make people go out and take it, as opposed to not when illegal is tosh in my books. I mean I was i a head shop the other day, was looking at this new liquid stuff from Thailand (cant remember its name) and asked the bloke about it, as we were genuinely interested about it, then he started explaining it, mentioned the word opiutes, tracing it up foil if you want etc and then made the decision to not buy it. That was legal. You dont see everyone going out buying it do you? I decided not to as I would feel uncomfortable taking it, after he explained it to me.... now you don't exactly get drug dealers doing the same do you nor is everyone buying the drug?!
Indeed. Ketamine was legal up until recently, as were magic mushrooms. I didn't see society getting completely blitzed on them - in fact, the illegal drugs still took enormous precedence over them in terms of sales.
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L i b
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(Original post by Sephiroth)
It's impossible to know for sure, but I am sure if tobacco wasn't so easily available and legal there wouldn't be anywhere near as many smokers. If you had to go to a drug dealer for tobacco and break the law smoking it then it's not something you would consider doing at 16, or even 12 as some like to start these days.
Actually I got my first **** illegally - those delightfully cheap ones they sell in dodgy parts of Britain's towns without customs duty paid upon them. As I understand it, a lot of people are doing that these days - despite it being illegal.

Same for alcohol. As a drinker, I can say I wouldn't risk going to jail and getting messed up with drug dealers just to get hold of it.
I can't say I share that sentiment. I also believe prohibition in the United States demonstrated that people generally do not either.
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generalebriety
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(Original post by The Anthropologist)
No, "rapaciousness" in this context means a greed for alcohol and satisfying ones, hefty need.
And I still say you misused the word. But no matter; alcohol is still dangerous. It ruins lives, breaks up families, causes unemployment, makes you lose your friends and colleagues, causes brain damage and mental illnesses, lowers your inhibitions, raises your self-confidence, increases your tendency to be aggressive, causes liver damage, gets you addicted and kills you. Sooo, should we ban that too?

You trust the law far too much. Heroin is illegal because there'd be a huge moralistic uproar if it was legalised, not because it's actually any more dangerous than various other recreational drugs. If alcohol was suddenly made illegal we'd have the same argument but in reverse. Heroin users might die more from overdosing than alcohol users do, but the latter die more from liver disease and pub fights than heroin addicts do. Swings and roundabouts. Anyway... a significant number of heroin users die from injecting impure heroin or using dirty needles. Legalisation would clear this problem up.
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henryt
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#37
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I think what is attractive about legalisation is that the government can provide free heroin, and so stopping the dealing dead in it's tracks, reducing not only stopping drug-supplying offences, but reducing shop-lifting/pickpocketing etc. offences by those who needed to find a source of additional income to pay for their drug habit in the first place. Also, the law defines much of what could seen to be rebellious, as people get a rush of adrenaline/look cool from breaking the rules or somesuch. If the law wasn't there in the first place, regardless of the 'message' we're sending, there wouldn't be nearly as much peer-pressure or reason to take heroin.
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L i b
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(Original post by henryt)
I think what is attractive about legalisation is that the government can provide free heroin
Why would the government want to have anything to do it it?

and so stopping the dealing dead in it's tracks
There's nothing inherently wrong with drug dealing.

, reducing not only stopping drug-supplying offences, but reducing shop-lifting/pickpocketing etc. offences by those who needed to find a source of additional income to pay for their drug habit in the first place.
Only because criminalisation results in hugely inflated prices.
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Fishfinger Sandwich
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(Original post by The Anthropologist)
It's my firm belief that illegal drugs should stay illegal. They can end lives, ruin families and waste money. This is one of the most dangerous of drugs and that's why I'm confused as to why countries like Switzerland would want it to be legalized?
Who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell people that they can't risk such things happening to them?
I've said it before and i'll say it again: I own my body, and I'll do whatever I want to it. The fact that laws are enforced to "protect people from themselves" is awful, and upsets me.
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generalebriety
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(Original post by Fishfinger Sandwich)
Who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell people that they can't risk such things happening to them?
I've said it before and i'll say it again: I own my body, and I'll do whatever I want to it. The fact that laws are enforced to "protect people from themselves" is awful, and upsets me.
Agreed.
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