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    So I am looking at pursuing a maths degree and I decided since I am self teaching I want to allow for all circumstances or get a full picture. EG if I get A*A*A* I want to allow for Oxbridge but still wanted to know what my options are for getting CCC etc with other universities.

    well I made a spread sheet of currently 58 universities still expanding that do maths degree. and looked for several criteria

    Russel group yes or no, international reputation, international reputation for subject, same thing reputation but domestically, average graduate salary, % offer rate % 2:1 or above %. drop put % rate. % in employment or further study after six months.

    then since I will have to pay the tuition fees from my own pocket I made a spreadsheet taking into account tax etc against cost of doing the degree whether economically it would be worthwhile.

    Well I don't want to bore people with massive details of where is worth going to and where isn't most of it is predictable but there are some very notable exceptions with some that people would think were strong contenders which come out as not worth it and others whom people would say definitely not come out strong, but outside of these few there are not really any surprises.

    The thing that is frustrating me is everywhere is asking for Ridiculously high grades. Basically unless I can get A*AA+ I can pretty much forget the whole thing. apart from a few that ask for AAA and the notable exception of Cardiff who rank high in a number of categories that ask for AAB. So if I cannot get at least AAB I can forget the whole thing no university worth going to for maths will take me. or so it appears.

    Now I guess that is undesirable as it puts me under a lot of pressure and maybe I seem like a cry baby well, but its not the grade requirements that frustrate me in particular its that a number of universities just flat out rule themselves out of any reasonable entertainment of going there.

    for example Leicester university also ask for AAB why would I entertain applying if Cardiff who beat them on every single measure also ask for AAB? there is just nothing to justify it. If I can get AAB I will be applying to Cardiff leicester could of been an insurance but why if they ask for the exact same thing if I do that I am just hoping they ask for AAB but they really mean ABB/BBB or even BBC. There is something to imply that, with some professor on youtube from a russel group saying universities ask for higher grade requirements when they will accept lower to appear more prestigious.

    how does that even work with league tables, review sites student forums youtube etc. I mean sure at first glance you get my attention and appear more prestigious by asking for higher grades. However I am not going to commit 3 years of my life and tuition fees+oppertunity costs exceeding £40000+ (and thats a very conservative figure) on a whim of 30 seconds finding a page and seeing there entry requirements. I am going to ask a lot of questions and those questions will flush out where universities really stand.

    Do other students do that make such a big decision on a whim? I mean I would expect that from CCC grade students but then they themselves would rule themselves out of applying to unrealistic targets. However any students obtaining ABB or better I would expect would have a character trait that would do the research.

    when I go to pick my five I want to pick universities that will allow me to get the best I can with my academics and the most offers. I then want to pick the best university that makes me an offer and an insurance in case I miss that. I am not going to put an insurance choice that ask for the same as my main choice.

    So how do these universities even get applicants? If I can get into Kings college london with ABB then sure I would apply but when they ask for AAA and there are multiple universities that have better prospects and ask for lower grades why would I apply their?

    its a shame because I would of liked to apply to kings if things didn't go well.

    If universities really are boosting their entry requirements above what they would accept just how felixible is it? could I really get onto a decent course for maths with BBB?
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    No, is the short answer. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the argument, grade inflation as led to a oversupply of applicants with AAA. As with anything, it's supply and demand and why is a university going to accept a BBB applicant when they can fill their course several times over with a straight A applicant.

    As for the rest of the details, I think you're being a little bit overanalytical. Not everything can be reduced to a spreadsheet, and there's lots of other, less quantifiable reasons why people choose the universities they do.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    No, is the short answer. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the argument, grade inflation as led to a oversupply of applicants with AAA. As with anything, it's supply and demand and why is a university going to accept a BBB applicant when they can fill their course several times over with a straight A applicant.

    As for the rest of the details, I think you're being a little bit overanalytical. Not everything can be reduced to a spreadsheet, and there's lots of other, less quantifiable reasons why people choose the universities they do.
    Very well said, particularly in the bolded section. There's no substitute to visiting a university and considering how you feel about the department and location.
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    my point isnt that everyone asks for AAA, its that less prestigious universities ask for the same as the elite universities. I mean I think I can get the grades anyway but if I can why would I bother ever choosing the less prestigious ones?

    I am aware there are other factors but I have taken a lot into account for example some less prestigious universities ask for higher grades but their graduates earn more because they have direct links to industry and a strong placement scheme.

    others are just better for the subject.

    However we have some that are lower on league tables lower on graduate salary lower on employment prospects and lower on teaching who ask for higher grades then those that beat them in every measurable category.

    I have been to Leicester and it is not a nice place to live, not that bothers me much. but Unless Cardiff is an absolute **** hole They are not winning for location.

    I didn't mention University City London because they are so far down on everything they have nothing to offer except London as a place to live. they Ask for AAB I am not against russel group asking for this or high ranking polytechnics, it just seems silly when universities at the bottom of the pile who have a poor graduate employment rate ask for this.
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    to put it more clearly I believe I have strong ability for maths so If I put the work in I can see myself coming out with A*A*A* however I struggle with that because I need to get the money to fund degree and its getting the time to put the work in. plus I have an anxiety disorder that can cause me to crash.

    I see A*A*A* as realistic I also see anything within the range of BBB-UUU as realistic. However what I see as completely unrealistic and would be shell shocked if it happened is AAA. that may sound ridiculous but I know myself well. If I put the work in I will know it inside and out if I dont I will crash and burn and come out with BBB-UUU. If I put the work in and have an anxiety crash in exam I wont be getting A* and I wont be getting A B at a push.

    I could see the best case scenario with minor slips resulting in A*A*A or worst case scenario with some boosts resulting in ABB but I cannot see me getting AAA-AAB it wont happen I know it wont.

    so basically its Almost Cambridge or nothing I have pretty much no insurance.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    for example Leicester university also ask for AAB why would I entertain applying if Cardiff who beat them on every single measure also ask for AAB? there is just nothing to justify it.
    I feel like this is part of the problem. Your only looking at the academic metric. Maybe Cardiff is better academically but Leicester is better for a host of other reasons (location, club variety, course structure, etc.) Keep in mind that these are all personal preference. Maybe someone live in Leicester so the University is local, or wants to do a club that only Leicester offer.

    These are most definitely big factors that need to be considered when making a decision. University isn't just more education. It's a way of life for the next few years. You might go somewhere that will give you better predicted grades but if you don't enjoy being there your life (and by extension grades) will suffer.

    People don't make these decisions on a whim but they also don't look at it in such a black and white way. I'd also consider myself fitting to your description (multiple A* to B grades across my years at college). I didn't apply to 5 universities. There's a long story behind my application that I don't feel like repeating but applied to both Southampton (which you'd class as a high ranking Uni) and Portsmouth (which I'm guessing you'd class lower than Southampton). To you Southampton would be the obvious choice since in terms of facilities and academic measure it probably comes out on top. But I chose Portsmouth for a number of largely non-academic reasons.

    Having a happy life at uni needs to be a consideration.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    my point isnt that everyone asks for AAA, its that less prestigious universities ask for the same as the elite universities. I mean I think I can get the grades anyway but if I can why would I bother ever choosing the less prestigious ones?

    I am aware there are other factors but I have taken a lot into account for example some less prestigious universities ask for higher grades but their graduates earn more because they have direct links to industry and a strong placement scheme.

    others are just better for the subject.

    However we have some that are lower on league tables lower on graduate salary lower on employment prospects and lower on teaching who ask for higher grades then those that beat them in every measurable category.

    I have been to Leicester and it is not a nice place to live, not that bothers me much. but Unless Cardiff is an absolute **** hole They are not winning for location.

    I didn't mention University City London because they are so far down on everything they have nothing to offer except London as a place to live. they Ask for AAB I am not against russel group asking for this or high ranking polytechnics, it just seems silly when universities at the bottom of the pile who have a poor graduate employment rate ask for this.
    Just because they have the same entry requirement doesn't necessarily mean they're just as easy to get into. Some universities are more lenient with offers (i.e. they will give you an offer even if you miss your conditional by a few grades), others aren't. Some, like Oxbridge and Imperial, use interviews as their main way of deciding who to give offers to rather than using grades as a filter.

    I'd also add that these universities wouldn't have such high grade requirements if demand didn't push them up that high. You don't get those kinds of typical grades for less competitive subjects. Also, Maths is a subject where higher grades are more predictable because there's absolutely zero subjectivity.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Just because they have the same entry requirement doesn't necessarily mean they're just as easy to get into. Some universities are more lenient with offers (i.e. they will give you an offer even if you miss your conditional by a few grades), others aren't. Some, like Oxbridge and Imperial, use interviews as their main way of deciding who to give offers to rather than using grades as a filter.
    Yeah I get that i have offer rate % in my spreadsheet so that is something I can quantify which helps pick for top 5 but then I don't know how lenient universities will be on results day. Which makes a big difference for my insurance.

    Why do universities ask for higher grades if they will accept lower grades? it just deters people from applying.

    FYI Portsmouth ask for BCC for maths, so they dont fit into my category of complaint because they are not asking for anything close to what elites are. Portsmouth are absolute borderline for been worthwhile to go to or not. If i could get a student loan they would be an option but I cant so they aren't.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    No, is the short answer. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the argument, grade inflation as led to a oversupply of applicants with AAA. As with anything, it's supply and demand and why is a university going to accept a BBB applicant when they can fill their course several times over with a straight A applicant.

    As for the rest of the details, I think you're being a little bit overanalytical. Not everything can be reduced to a spreadsheet, and there's lots of other, less quantifiable reasons why people choose the universities they do.
    PRSOM
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    actually Cardiff Leicester and Porstmouth are 3 very good universities for making my point

    Cardiff ask for AAB they have an offer rate 98% of graduate salary expectations £26000 are Russel group and known internationally
    leicester ask for AAB have an offer rate of 85% graduate salary expectation of £23000 are not Russel group and are not known internationally
    Portsmouth ask for BCC have an offer rate of 98% graduate salary expectation £23000 are not Russel group and not known internationally.

    as we can see Cardiff is easier to get into more likely to get an offer is better known internationally is Russel group and has decent prospects

    Leicester are tougher then cardiff to get into where as Portsmouth are easier and a better place to live then Leicester. the only measurable difference between Portsmouth and Leicester that stands out is Portsmouth is a better place to live. Yet portsmouth are so much easier to get into.

    I don't have a problem with Portsmouth a degree from their is pretty much break even proposition given my circumstances its Leicester that winds me up and kings college who ask for AAA when Cardiff beat them in every way and ask for AAB.

    would Cardiff likely give me a place if I got ABB?
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    Why do universities ask for higher grades if they will accept lower grades? it just deters people from applying.
    Predicted grade inflation and it makes them look more impressive. I do not think it deters people from applying, quite the opposite actually.
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    Don't forget that maths is particularly skewed in terms of the market for applicants

    42% of maths A levels were A or A* in 2016 (over 38,000 people)
    56% of further maths A levels were A or A* in 2016 (just over 15,000 people)

    8,940 were placed onto maths degrees in 2016, 6,530 from England (of about 6,700 who initially applied)

    Most people applying for a maths degree will be doing both maths and FM....and given that HUGE skew in the A level results there's a strong incentive for universities to make sure that people have at least AA in Maths/FM to do a maths degree.

    If you got CC in your maths/FM grades would you feel confident of being able to complete and succeed on a maths degree? And if you did go for it would you prefer to be surrounded by students with a similar A level background (and taught by academics catering to that background) or would you prefer to be surrounded by A*A* students (and taught by academics accustomed to teaching A*A* students) and feel like you're constantly playing catch up?

    If you're looking for good backup options then http://www.strath.ac.uk/courses/unde...athematicsbsc/ (and other scottish universities) or http://www.swansea.ac.uk/undergradua...ts=is-expanded or http://www.aston.ac.uk/study/undergr...c-mathematics/ or http://www.sussex.ac.uk/study/underg...athematics-bsc or http://www.essex.ac.uk/courses/detai...269&subgroup=1 or https://www2.uea.ac.uk/study/undergr...sc-mathematics would be worth a look. If you're filtering on Russell Group I recommend throwing that preference in the bin....it just means they're big and academic staff focus their attention on their research - that's not the route to a good university experience, especially if you don't do as well as you hoped. For your "back up" universities then places that look after their students and have opportunities for placements would be a better plan than struggling through feeling left behind somewhere where the staff aren't interested in teaching.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    actually Cardiff Leicester and Porstmouth are 3 very good universities for making my point

    Cardiff ask for AAB they have an offer rate 98% of graduate salary expectations £26000 are Russel group and known internationally
    leicester ask for AAB have an offer rate of 85% graduate salary expectation of £23000 are not Russel group and are not known internationally
    Portsmouth ask for BCC have an offer rate of 98% graduate salary expectation £23000 are not Russel group and not known internationally.

    as we can see Cardiff is easier to get into more likely to get an offer is better known internationally is Russel group and has decent prospects

    Leicester are tougher then cardiff to get into where as Portsmouth are easier and a better place to live then Leicester. the only measurable difference between Portsmouth and Leicester that stands out is Portsmouth is a better place to live. Yet portsmouth are so much easier to get into.

    I don't have a problem with Portsmouth a degree from their is pretty much break even proposition given my circumstances its Leicester that winds me up and kings college who ask for AAA when Cardiff beat them in every way and ask for AAB.

    would Cardiff likely give me a place if I got ABB?
    Perhaps instead of all these involved calculations it would be better to try to get AAA and then all this would be academic!
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    Perhaps instead of all these involved calculations it would be better to try to get AAA and then all this would be academic!
    Because their is no way in hell I am ever getting AAA I might get A*A*A* that is realistic knowing me but AAA is completely not, I know that sounds weird but I know myself well. However yeah your generic point stands I should stop panicking about back up options and just push for the A*A*A*.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    Because their is no way in hell I am ever getting AAA I might get A*A*A* that is realistic knowing me but AAA is completely not, I know that sounds weird but I know myself well. However yeah your generic point stands I should stop panicking about back up options and just push for the A*A*A*.
    Precisely.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    actually Cardiff Leicester and Porstmouth are 3 very good universities for making my point

    Cardiff ask for AAB they have an offer rate 98% of graduate salary expectations £26000 are Russel group and known internationally
    leicester ask for AAB have an offer rate of 85% graduate salary expectation of £23000 are not Russel group and are not known internationally
    Portsmouth ask for BCC have an offer rate of 98% graduate salary expectation £23000 are not Russel group and not known internationally.

    as we can see Cardiff is easier to get into more likely to get an offer is better known internationally is Russel group and has decent prospects

    Leicester are tougher then cardiff to get into where as Portsmouth are easier and a better place to live then Leicester. the only measurable difference between Portsmouth and Leicester that stands out is Portsmouth is a better place to live. Yet portsmouth are so much easier to get into.

    I don't have a problem with Portsmouth a degree from their is pretty much break even proposition given my circumstances its Leicester that winds me up and kings college who ask for AAA when Cardiff beat them in every way and ask for AAB.

    would Cardiff likely give me a place if I got ABB?
    Your "known/not known internationally" is a bit off.

    Cardiff - 13% of undergrads from outside the UK, 39% of postgrads
    Portsmouth - 16% of undergrads from outside the UK, 31% of postgrads
    Leicester - 22% of undergrads from outside the UK, 54% of postgrads
    2014/15 stats from https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/app

    Leicester has a HUGE international population that they've got through marketing internationally.
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    "...since I will have to pay the tuition fees from my own pocket..."
    You want to pay for an Oxbridge degree AND self teach?

    "However I am not going to commit 3 years of my life and tuition fees+oppertunity costs exceeding £40000+"
    So you want to pay for an Oxbridge degree AND self teach AND do it full time?

    Unless you're rich, you're just making life difficult for yourself. But if you're rich... Woah!

    But if you're not?

    There are loads of options available, I just had a gander at Google...
    Open University:
    BSc Mathematics (accredited)
    ~£16,000 for a complete degree
    Excellent books (particularly for autodidact-types)
    Flexible study arrangements (course can be completed in ~3-15 years)
    Tutor support should you need it

    Personally, I'd take a guy with BSc Mathematics from Open University than some Oxbridge toffee. Again that's just my 10 pence (devalued currency, THANKS BREXIT!).

    "If universities really are boosting their entry requirements above what they would accept just how felixible is it?"
    If you're not getting A*A*A*/AAA you can forget about Oxbridge, they're spoilt for choice. No use complaining about grade inflation either: everyone wants a degree of sorts and a job that doesn't involve menial labour crap- this applies to EVERYBODY. There are hundreds of thousands of students, a quarter of A level grades are A or above, statistically speaking there will be no shortage of candidates with AAA or more.

    I wouldn't worry too much though as there are plenty of non-Oxbridge institutiones that are great, and also: universities want £££ so there will be no shortage of options available for you. I suspect this is not the answer you want, you're more interested in prestige aren't you?
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    (Original post by MasterJack)
    "...since I will have to pay the tuition fees from my own pocket..."
    You want to pay for an Oxbridge degree AND self teach?

    "However I am not going to commit 3 years of my life and tuition fees+oppertunity costs exceeding £40000+"
    So you want to pay for an Oxbridge degree AND self teach AND do it full time?

    Unless you're rich, you're just making life difficult for yourself. But if you're rich... Woah!

    But if you're not?

    There are loads of options available, I just had a gander at Google...
    Open University:
    BSc Mathematics (accredited)
    ~£16,000 for a complete degree
    Excellent books (particularly for autodidact-types)
    Flexible study arrangements (course can be completed in ~3-15 years)
    Tutor support should you need it

    Personally, I'd take a guy with BSc Mathematics from Open University than some Oxbridge toffee. Again that's just my 10 pence (devalued currency, THANKS BREXIT!).

    "If universities really are boosting their entry requirements above what they would accept just how felixible is it?"
    If you're not getting A*A*A*/AAA you can forget about Oxbridge, they're spoilt for choice. No use complaining about grade inflation either: everyone wants a degree of sorts and a job that doesn't involve menial labour crap- this applies to EVERYBODY. There are hundreds of thousands of students, a quarter of A level grades are A or above, statistically speaking there will be no shortage of candidates with AAA or more.

    I wouldn't worry too much though as there are plenty of non-Oxbridge institutiones that are great, and also: universities want £££ so there will be no shortage of options available for you. I suspect this is not the answer you want, you're more interested in prestige aren't you?
    I am self teaching myself A levels I assume at Oxbridge I would have the same teaching everyone else would have. briefly I play quite a bit of poker and whilst I am sure there will be many better poker players then me on these forums I am able to make enough money from poker to acquire the funds for Degree.

    I do live rent free at home, so this plays into things I guess the open university does have its merits However I would rather go to a brick and Morter university then do the thing online whilst living in my parents house, many things come with that lifestyle that I do not want. I guess if results go pear shaped open university might be an option.

    Prestige isn't really what it is all about Though it is preferred. Surrey for example have surprisingly good figures and are relatively well ranked for maths. They do not fit the bill for prestige, they have a graduate salary figure of £26000 for maths. which is identical to Cardiff. However Cardiff are more known internationally from what I am aware. however Surrey ask for AAA-AAB where as Cardiff ask for AAB or A*BB Cardiff are easier to get into.

    if Surrey asked for BBB with the same figures they would be an excellent back up prospect However because many of the elite universities ask for what Surrey does their is no realistic prospect of me ever applying to surrey they are a good university for the subject and one I should be satisfied with and would be. Except I wont get into Surrey unless I get the grades that would allow me to go somewhere with similar graduate prospects but better known with more prestige. Thus Surrey might as well not exist to me. This is what winds me up.

    I am not sure if I have explained what I mean by internationally well known. We live in very unstable times and the rise of the far right and far left is scary. Been an autistic Jew I don't feel safe with either of them. Hopefully things wont get out of hand but I like to have a back up plan. getting a Visa to another country on the back of having a job lined up and or strong academic background/skills is realistic.

    However people may not have heard of universities like Surrey Leicester or a better example Bath. Leicester dont have anything outstanding in terms of average graduate salary however Bath and Surrey do.

    My internationally well known criteria breaks down to if things start getting bad and I need to get out of here, could I do that with a maths degree from university X. If my chances are better elsewhere I prefer to go to a different university.

    if I could get into Australia/America/Canada with a maths degree from Portsmouth just as easily as I could with say maths degree from Warwick or Bristol etc then I would have much less concerns about the possibility of studying at Portsmouth.
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    for future reference how do we post word/ excel docs here?
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    for future reference how do we post word/ excel docs here?
    Please don't.
 
 
 
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