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As an EU supporter I think the UK needs to leave the single market Watch

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    The idea that the brexit vote wasn't also a vote on the single market (and freedom of movement which comes with it) is an idea at least as stupid if not more so than what Vote Leave were promising.

    At least half of the pro EU parliamentarians have the sense to see this and are now rightly trying to follow Mays plan of getting the best deal possible with the caveat of no free movement. It may be the case that such a decision will be against the UKs interests but that's democracy for you- it could well be the case that John McDonnell would be an awful chancellor and that he should be precluded from power etc but that would not be in the spirit of democracy.

    Another referendum isn't undemocratic as the Neanderthal faction of the Leave vote continually bleat out, (in the same way another general election isn't undemocratic) but it would be counterproductive and stupid- and paint those of us who support the idea of the EU in a worse light.

    Instead we should focus on what parts of the EU we wish to remain in (not even Farage wants to leave everything) and which parts e.g. CAP we wish to leave. Once that is done ( and it should be done ASAP) we should immediately trigger article 50 and formally begin negotiations with our European brethren.
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    I disagree on it necessarily meaning am exit from the single market.

    People may have (and very many certainly did) voted out because they thought the EU would give in and let the UK stay in the single market while not having to abide by the free movement principle.

    They were amply warned, but then again the average intellect of your Brexit supporter isn't something spectacular.

    But, those who voted on the basis you mention are getting what they want anyway.

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    So.... why should we leave the single market?

    The referendum was a vote on our membership of the EU, not the single market. Freedom of movement was probably the main issue behind the Leave campaign(s) but it wasn't the only one. Some people were against our financial contribution to the EU, the UK losing sovereignty to the EU, etc.

    The terms of a potential exit were never really discussed much during the campaigning but I'm pretty sure the 'Norwegian Model' was mentioned more regularly than some completely independent Britain that was outside of the single market.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that most of the major Leave campaigners made the arguement that the EU would have to give us full access to the single market. I don't recall anyone advocating otherwise.
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    (Original post by *Stefan*)
    I disagree on it necessarily meaning am exit from the single market.

    People may have (and very many certainly did) voted out because they thought the EU would give in and let the UK stay in the single market while not having to abide by the free movement principle.

    They were amply warned, but then again the average intellect of your Brexit supporter isn't something spectacular.

    But, those who voted on the basis you mention are getting what they want anyway.

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    Obviously the best position would be to stay in the single market minus free movement which is what the government are going for- but if it's s choice between the single market as it is now and full control over borders the latter will win hands down. Whilst it may hurt us, for the most part Leave voters I think will be willing to take the hit- despite being the worse hit.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    So.... why should we leave the single market?

    The referendum was a vote on our membership of the EU, not the single market. Freedom of movement was probably the main issue behind the Leave campaign(s) but it wasn't the only one. Some people were against our financial contribution to the EU, the UK losing sovereignty to the EU, etc.

    The terms of a potential exit were never really discussed much during the campaigning but I'm pretty sure the 'Norwegian Model' was mentioned more regularly than some completely independent Britain that was outside of the single market.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain that most of the major Leave campaigners made the arguement that the EU would have to give us full access to the single market. I don't recall anyone advocating otherwise.
    Because as you say it was the main and most successful reason. See above/ if we remain in the single market but without free movement (highly unlikely) then there'd be no problem.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Because as you say it was the main and most successful reason. See above/ if we remain in the single market but without free movement (highly unlikely) then there'd be no problem.
    I looked into this further as I was pretty curious as to how people voted and the reasons why. I didn't think that there were any surveys done on this but apparently there had been one.

    Amongst Leave voters 49% said that the single biggest reason for them wanting the UK to leave the EU was to make the UK sovereign. Only 33% of people had controlled borders as the biggest reason.

    So no, I wouldn't say that the referendum was a vote on the single market.

    If anything you could probably argue that more people voted for the single market than those against it. On reasons relevant to the single market, 74% of remain voters, or 11.9 million votes, were in favour of the status quo while 39% of leave voters, or 6.8 million votes, were in favour of at least some kind of change.
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    the single marker is the property of the EU - if we leave the EU, we leave the single market. if we're not in the EU, we have no ownership of it. if we want to control immigration, we must leave the single market. the single market isn't even that good for trade. being a member of the single market means we have to put tariffs on countries that we otherwise would make more money from via trade.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    the single marker is the property of the EU - if we leave the EU, we leave the single market. if we're not in the EU, we have no ownership of it. if we want to control immigration, we must leave the single market. the single market isn't even that good for trade. being a member of the single market means we have to put tariffs on countries that we otherwise would make more money from via trade.
    Seriously?
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    (Original post by *Stefan*)
    Seriously?
    seriously what?
    edit: sorry, the quote was minimised:
    yes - if we're in the single market, while we won't have tariffs from EU member states, we'd have to abide by their tariff and trade deals with the rest of the world instead of freely trading - we can basically only freely trade with the EU and several other states such as (basically) turkey, mexico and canada
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    The Referendum was a vote on an overall in/out, trying t add meaning to that, from either side of the debate is a ridiculous idea at best and an attempt to subvert democracy at worst.

    What would be helpfulnwould be some sort of national policy forum where people could have discussed and approached consensus on what shape e exit deal would take, but its too late for that and we dont have the infrastructure for it anyway.

    What this means is that, for me, the government cannot in good faith keep the British people entirely in the dark while negotiating any deal that is made with the EU so that voters are able to hold them to account over this deal otherwise we will end up with a deal precisely nobody wants.
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    The fact is if there was a vote on who wants to stay in the single market it would
    (more likely than not) win given the support from remain and a percentage of leave.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    seriously what?
    edit: sorry, the quote was minimised:
    yes - if we're in the single market, while we won't have tariffs from EU member states, we'd have to abide by their tariff and trade deals with the rest of the world instead of freely trading - we can basically only freely trade with the EU and several other states such as (basically) turkey, mexico and canada
    Not at all.

    Firstly, the Gov's attempts to pre-schedule trade agreements have all been rejected. Australia said that the UK will only be considered after trade talks with the EU have been concluded. Norway also rejected talks before the UK left the EU. Britain will be in the limbo for many, many years, relying on the basic WTO trade rules, which are of course terrible compared to what the EU offers.

    Secondly, you're assuming that the terms will be favourable. The EU is massive and has a very, very (...) strong bargaining hand when agreeing on deals. The UK does not - if anything, given that it will be in the limbo described above, it will be definitely taken advantage of.

    Finally, you're forgetting that the UK has strong trading links with Europe because of geographical distances too. You can't expect the same trade volumes to countries such as Australia and China, precisely because they are way too far to make it profitable.

    In any case, the massive job losses announced by Nissan are a good indicator of what's to come.
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    I looked into this further as I was pretty curious as to how people voted and the reasons why. I didn't think that there were any surveys done on this but apparently there had been one.

    Amongst Leave voters 49% said that the single biggest reason for them wanting the UK to leave the EU was to make the UK sovereign. Only 33% of people had controlled borders as the biggest reason.

    So no, I wouldn't say that the referendum was a vote on the single market.

    If anything you could probably argue that more people voted for the single market than those against it. On reasons relevant to the single market, 74% of remain voters, or 11.9 million votes, were in favour of the status quo while 39% of leave voters, or 6.8 million votes, were in favour of at least some kind of change.

    I'm sceptical of polls like that - they're open to all kinds of problems. Having a sovereign U.K. Sounds a lot better than being anti immigration.
    As you said - immigration was the main reason.

    Edit: also I think there's flawed reasoning on your last objection I t- by the same logic we shouldn't have a Tory government because more people didn't vote Tory than did.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    The idea that the brexit vote wasn't also a vote on the single market (and freedom of movement which comes with it) is an idea at least as stupid if not more so than what Vote Leave were promising.

    At least half of the pro EU parliamentarians have the sense to see this and are now rightly trying to follow Mays plan of getting the best deal possible with the caveat of no free movement. It may be the case that such a decision will be against the UKs interests but that's democracy for you- it could well be the case that John McDonnell would be an awful chancellor and that he should be precluded from power etc but that would not be in the spirit of democracy.

    Another referendum isn't undemocratic as the Neanderthal faction of the Leave vote continually bleat out, (in the same way another general election isn't undemocratic) but it would be counterproductive and stupid- and paint those of us who support the idea of the EU in a worse light.

    Instead we should focus on what parts of the EU we wish to remain in (not even Farage wants to leave everything) and which parts e.g. CAP we wish to leave. Once that is done ( and it should be done ASAP) we should immediately trigger article 50 and formally begin negotiations with our European brethren.
    I'm inclined to agree with the majority of this. Carping on about the result and trying to get another referendum is undemocratic in the sense that it would appear the question the legitimacy of the result of the first one. Nicola Sturgeon is rightly castigated for her constant attempts for indyref2, and the feeling is that she'll continue to call for referenda until she gets the answer she wants. I personally wanted to stay within a reformed EU - I think you're suggesting in your post that we should deploy some good old-fashioned British pragmatism and make the best of what we have. This I wholeheartedly agree with.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    I'm inclined to agree with the majority of this. Carping on about the result and trying to get another referendum is undemocratic in the sense that it would appear the question the legitimacy of the result of the first one. Nicola Sturgeon is rightly castigated for her constant attempts for indyref2, and the feeling is that she'll continue to call for referenda until she gets the answer she wants. I personally wanted to stay within a reformed EU - I think you're suggesting in your post that we should deploy some good old-fashioned British pragmatism and make the best of what we have. This I wholeheartedly agree with.
    If we have a vote on whether to stay in the single market it would be more democratic, UK voted to leave the membership of the EU, we're leaving,
    under which conditions? we don't frigging know because the vote was a yes or no which means to make this process more democratic the public should have a say on the next big issue, whether or not to stay in the single market.

    If we're not going to have that vote then it should be left to parliament our electorates and not solely Theresa May who was never elected by the people to be PM.
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    (Original post by Reality Check)
    I'm inclined to agree with the majority of this. Carping on about the result and trying to get another referendum is undemocratic in the sense that it would appear the question the legitimacy of the result of the first one. Nicola Sturgeon is rightly castigated for her constant attempts for indyref2, and the feeling is that she'll continue to call for referenda until she gets the answer she wants.
    If she genuinely thinks this Scotland would be better off the UK why shouldn't she campaign for it to leave the U.K.? Referendums don't change anything- Leave campaigners who thought the EU was monstrous shouldn't be expected to change their minds even if 99% of people voted to stay in or vice Versa.

    I personally wanted to stay within a reformed EU - I think you're suggesting in your post that we should deploy some good old-fashioned British pragmatism and make the best of what we have. This I wholeheartedly agree with.
    Yeah pretty much that.
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    (Original post by XOR_)
    If we have a vote on whether to stay in the single market it would be more democratic, UK voted to leave the membership of the EU, we're leaving,
    under which conditions? we don't frigging know because the vote was a yes or no which means to make this process more democratic the public should have a say on the next big issue, whether or not to stay in the single market.

    If we're not going to have that vote then it should be left to parliament our electorates and not solely Theresa May who was never elected by the people to be PM.
    I have some sympathy with this, in that perhaps the referendum vote was really asking the wrong question, too broadly drawn.
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    (Original post by XOR_)
    The fact is if there was a vote on who wants to stay in the single market it would undoubtedly win given the support from remain and a percentage of leave.
    In conclusion, the 'people' (more likely than not) want to stay in the single market.
    I'm not convinced that it would win because the question 'Do you think Britain should remain in the single market' necessarily includes '...and accept freedom of movement'.
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    (Original post by *Stefan*)
    Not at all.

    Firstly, the Gov's attempts to pre-schedule trade agreements have all been rejected.
    I never said they weren't

    Australia said that the UK will only be considered after trade talks with the EU have been concluded.
    I never contradicted this!

    Norway also rejected talks before the UK left the EU.
    never spoke against that!

    Britain will be in the limbo for many, many years, relying on the basic WTO trade rules, which are of course terrible compared to what the EU offers.
    do you even know what I think about this? I think the UK should leave the EU straight away so it can deal with these nations a lot sooner

    Secondly, you're assuming that the terms will be favourable.
    ...did I ever say this? :| are you confusing me with another user?

    The EU is massive and has a very, very (...) strong bargaining hand when agreeing on deals. The UK does not - if anything, given that it will be in the limbo described above, it will be definitely taken advantage of.
    okay?

    Finally, you're forgetting that the UK has strong trading links with Europe because of geographical distances too. You can't expect the same trade volumes to countries such as Australia and China, precisely because they are way too far to make it profitable.
    I didn't claim that at all - but generally if we freely trade with such nations, trade will at the very least increase, and considering a global context, that is significant

    In any case, the massive job losses announced by Nissan are a good indicator of what's to come.
    purely short-termism you're dealing with here. you cannot tell me that just because we are getting bad consequences *now* we aren't going to get good outcomes later. are you really suggesting that to leave the EU will cause us to be in a bad state forever even with all of the possibilites of free trade with other nations whom we never freely traded with before while within the EU? if anything this will hit the accellerator for our trade when the EU *tariffs* trade comparatively! these are growing pains for us.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I'm sceptical of polls like that - they're open to all kinds of problems. Having a sovereign U.K. Sounds a lot better than being anti immigration.
    As you said - immigration was the main reason.

    Edit: also I think there's flawed reasoning on your last objection I t- by the same logic we shouldn't have a Tory government because more people didn't vote Tory than did.
    It's fine to be skeptical but unless you are to provide surveys which suggest otherwise then that's all we have to work with. I believed that immigration was the main reason but that was just a personal opinion. I hadn't been aware that a survey was done.

    You cannot compare a referendum to an election because the way we vote is different. You don't vote on a yes/no question in an election. What I have looked at are the main reasons behind the votes for a specific issue. Within those votes is another issue, the single market, which we can measure support for regardless of what the overall vote said. You could perform the same exercise if we had a referendum on whether should have a Tory government.
 
 
 
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