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    My responses will be in bold

    Salaam I really don't want this to be debate on here of any sort and I want to be truthful of course.

    Likewise.

    You may not know me well, but I really fear bida'ah and would never accept a practice until it is proven to me using reliable sources within Islam. Hence, fasting for half a day I can't accept as it is recommended highly by our beloved prophet (saw) that we fast on the day of Ashura.

    No muslim should like bidah.

    No you do not need to apologise brother and you have not upset me in any way. I just worry we as Muslims should be careful and not fall into bid'ah.

    Likewise

    Yes I believe we should not harm ourself in any way when remembering the event of Karbala because it does not achieve anything and is not a sunnah/practice in Islam. Hence, self-flagellation done on purpose (especially as a group/in a gathering) then I say it is bid'ah.

    But the striking of the wife of Ibrahim didn't achieve anything, nor did excessive weeping of Prophet Yaqub for his son (in fact, it caused him to be blind).

    As with the wife of the prophet Ibrahim (AS) I presented the tafsir on that and again would say not to interpret in a way to make it appear as if she was harming herself on purpose. She was amazed to hear the news and so it is a natural reaction with most women. It was not arranged and done.

    Sister, the issue with such answers is that I can easily turn round and say, after listening to the lecture on the matyrdom of Imam Hussain, my natural reaction is to hit myself. Can you prove me wrong? You mentioned that it's a natural reaction in most women, so I can say this is a natural reaction in some men around the world.

    Also, If she hit herself for being able to give birth at that age, then I cannot imagine how she would have reacted after seeing Karbala.

    Another point , so you believe it's ok to damage yourself but only if it's a natural reaction?

    What about the taraweeh issue I raised?

    Lack of emotional control I understand, but we have to be careful to not use this as an excuse always without being thoughtful. One has to prevent this from happening in the first place eg understand that it will achieve nothing and to remember the event maturely. Those that gather in large groups etc should make it clear that this not right. I am against arranging atmoshphere as such that will promote/lead one to self-flagellation. As some can make a big scene out of it and show off their concern for the event in large gatherings this way. I know that people gather on ashura and actually stand to just beat their chests while mourning
    continuously without anyone going against it.

    Sister, can you not see that "lack of emotional control" essentially equates to a "natural reaction", by it's very defininition.

    They will not stop people probably because they agree with the mourning.

    Do you think as a Muslim I don't care about this event? I do however I would rather pray and stay within limits and rather not engage in something that may lead me to fall into unneccessary acts just for the day. As well as this there are many other events too that were tragic, so does this mean we do the same for all.

    I never said you don't care about this event.

    You can weep for other tragedies if you want. The emphasis is on Karbala because it was such a great tragedy. In fact, it was the biggest tragedy on the Ahlulbayt, among the many tragedies.

    Imam Hassan said: There's no day, like your day Oh Aba Abdillah.

    Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

    Most people don't stike their cheeks. (Also, what about the wife of Ibrahim in relation to this? She striked her face..?)

    What is meant by cries of Jaahilyyah?

    Sorry for missing some points but I just said what I could now and you must know by now that I am against making this event into an anniversary in such a way some or most shias do now.

    No worries about the points.

    Allahu Alam.

    Indeed
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    tl;dr

    any summary?
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    Isn't there a thread by Tawheed already open??
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    Why did Mohammed have a satirical poet killed and one of his female pupils who happened to sing one of the verses of his satirical songs
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    What the hell is this thread about????😯😯😯🤔
    Im soooo confused 🤔🤔
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    (Original post by AmirahxRashid)
    What the hell is this thread about????😯😯😯🤔
    Im soooo confused 🤔🤔
    for discussion and debate on islamic topics - ie for all those posts that were banned/ removed from ISoc, can now be posted here.
    basically its a superior version of ISoc
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    for discussion and debate on islamic topics - ie for all those posts that were banned/ removed from ISoc, can now be posted here.
    basically its a superior version of ISoc
    Kkkk thanks 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗
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    Why would god want us to follow lots of rules that have no purpose when he already knows what is in our hearts and minds? If I am worshipping him 24/7 in my heart and mind does he care if I dont pray salat? If all the rules of other religions are man made what if the rules of Islam are aswell? I grew up in a family that does not follow all the things like salat and fasting and stuff and since I have been trying to get into doing things properly the more stuff I learn the less sense it makes. I think that my parents might be right that it is not about all the outside suff but all the inside stuff. And thats why there is some much sectarian fighting because it is not from god. He wouldnt command stuff that leads to Muslims killing each other and the same for christians. They have had wars about differences between sects.
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    (Original post by gr8wizard10)
    tl;dr

    any summary?
    we were having an debate on ISOC but I thought it's better to create a new thread.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Isn't there a thread by Tawheed already open??
    Not on this issue, to my knowledge.

    This is specifically for the issue discussed on ISOC.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    Why did Mohammed have a satirical poet killed and one of his female pupils who happened to sing one of the verses of his satirical songs
    This thread is exclusive to the debate I was having on ISOC
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    (Original post by guided1)
    Why would god want us to follow lots of rules that have no purpose when he already knows what is in our hearts and minds? If I am worshipping him 24/7 in my heart and mind does he care if I dont pray salat? If all the rules of other religions are man made what if the rules of Islam are aswell? I grew up in a family that does not follow all the things like salat and fasting and stuff and since I have been trying to get into doing things properly the more stuff I learn the less sense it makes. I think that my parents might be right that it is not about all the outside suff but all the inside stuff. And thats why there is some much sectarian fighting because it is not from god. He wouldnt command stuff that leads to Muslims killing each other and the same for christians. They have had wars about differences between sects.
    With due respect, such rulings do have a purpose. Most, if not all rulings include our own benefit/protection.

    Ah yes, good old "disagreement = falsehood" notion.

    Anyway, this thread was designed for a specific debate.
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    Assalaamu Alaykum bro....seriousIy would have appreciated it if you really wanted to continue, to have done so on Tawheed bro's thread instead of this new thread. The practice we are discussing is mainly accepted within shiasm hence that thread would have been fine for it.

    I am no scholar, hence I would advise to look at scholars opinions on why this is impermissible, if you still can't comprehend. I was going to end this tbh as I don't see the point and it has become clear to me that you as a shia accept beating and mourning on a yearly basis. And I disagree with this practice completely. However, I will try my best to make some points clear insha'Allah.

    (Original post by mil88)
    My responses will be in bold

    Salaam I really don't want this to be debate on here of any sort and I want to be truthful of course.

    Likewise.

    You may not know me well, but I really fear bida'ah and would never accept a practice until it is proven to me using reliable sources within Islam. Hence, fasting for half a day I can't accept as it is recommended highly by our beloved prophet (saw) that we fast on the day of Ashura.

    No muslim should like bidah.
    Indeed, no Muslim should like bid'ah, however, it is very easy to fall into it if we are not careful. And many Muslims today do so due to lack of knowledge.

    (Original post by mil88)
    No you do not need to apologise brother and you have not upset me in any way. I just worry we as Muslims should be careful and not fall into bid'ah.

    Likewise
    I am glad Alhamdulillah because I want to be serious with you as this is of course a matter within Islam.I can't take what is presented to me instantly without proper research from reliable sources within Islam.

    (Original post by mil88)
    Yes I believe we should not harm ourself in any way when remembering the event of Karbala because it does not achieve anything and is not a sunnah/practice in Islam. Hence, self-flagellation done on purpose (especially as a group/in a gathering) then I say it is bid'ah.

    But the striking of the wife of Ibrahim didn't achieve anything, nor did excessive weeping of Prophet Yaqub for his son (in fact, it caused him to be blind).

    As with the wife of the prophet Ibrahim (AS) I presented the tafsir on that and again would say not to interpret in a way to make it appear as if she was harming herself on purpose. She was amazed to hear the news and so it is a natural reaction with most women. It was not arranged and done.

    Sister, the issue with such answers is that I can easily turn round and say, after listening to the lecture on the matyrdom of Imam Hussain, my natural reaction is to hit myself. Can you prove me wrong? You mentioned that it's a natural reaction in most women, so I can say this is a natural reaction in some men around the world.

    Also, If she hit herself for being able to give birth at that age, then I cannot imagine how she would have reacted after seeing Karbala.

    Another point , so you believe it's ok to damage yourself but only if it's a natural reaction?

    What about the taraweeh issue I raised?
    Again brother you are misunderstanding the verse about Ibrahim's (AS) wife. Please read the tafsir on it and you will understood it better. She was amazed, hence she struck herself upon her forehead. This was a natural reaction as it was not arranged beforehand for chest beating continuously etc unlike the gatherings held for mourning on the day of Ashura.

    Ya'qub (AS) did not beat his chest or face, or shed blood or take the day of the loss of Yusuf (AS) as a ceremony or day of mourning. Instead, he remembered his missing loved one and felt sad, worry and pain because of that. He is not (and no one is) to be blamed for something like this. What is impermissible and Islam forbids are the acts of Jaahiliyyah.

    I am sorry but I still think you don't understand we are not supposed to harm ourself physically yearly, this is absolutely not part of Islam. You very well know it is impermissible for us to hit ourself repeatedly for anyone occasionally. It is not part of the Sunnah, our Prophet (saw) never engaged in these acts. On top, he has forbidden us from holding the mourning ceremonies on the death of any person.

    Taraweeh and this should not even be compared as that is for own benefit and enough evidence within Islam that it was done by the prophet (saw). Taraweeh is not obligatory but sunnah.

    حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا اللَّيْثُ، عَنْ عُقَيْلٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو سَلَمَةَ، أَنَّ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ لِرَمَضَانَ ‏"‏ مَنْ قَامَهُ إِيمَانًا وَاحْتِسَابًا غُفِرَ لَهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِهِ ‏"
    ‏‏.‏
    Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying regarding Ramadan, "Whoever prayed at night in it (the month of Ramadan) out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven."

    Sahih Bukhari
    (Praying at Night in Ramadaan (Taraweeh))
    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2008
    In-book reference : Book 31, Hadith 1

    حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مَالِكٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، رضى الله عنها زَوْجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم صَلَّى وَذَلِكَ فِي رَمَضَانَ‏.‏

    Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to pray (at night) in Ramadan.

    Sahih Bukhari
    (Praying at Night in Ramadaan (Taraweeh))
    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2011
    In-book reference : Book 31, Hadith 4

    (Original post by mil88)
    Lack of emotional control I understand, but we have to be careful to not use this as an excuse always without being thoughtful. One has to prevent this from happening in the first place eg understand that it will achieve nothing and to remember the event maturely. Those that gather in large groups etc should make it clear that this not right. I am against arranging atmoshphere as such that will promote/lead one to self-flagellation. As some can make a big scene out of it and show off their concern for the event in large gatherings this way. I know that people gather on ashura and actually stand to just beat their chests while mourning
    continuously without anyone going against it.

    Sister, can you not see that "lack of emotional control" essentially equates to a "natural reaction", by it's very defininition.

    They will not stop people probably because they agree with the mourning.
    No it is not if it is organised/arranged yearly and done repeatedly.

    You know very well that there have been/are gatherings for this event which leads to severe self-flagellation even involving bloodshed. Even then, just by agreeing with the "mourning" you will still not care for them and prevent them from doing so?
    Shias say they don't agree with all this yet when it happens in large gatherings they allow it and encourage it because they think they are showing love etc. Really? Be honest is this the best way to show love by physically harming yourself every year in front of others. This is more of showing off to me,no offence. It is like a competition just for the day or can/may even lead to one.

    (Original post by mil88)
    Do you think as a Muslim I don't care about this event? I do however I would rather pray and stay within limits and rather not engage in something that may lead me to fall into unneccessary acts just for the day. As well as this there are many other events too that were tragic, so does this mean we do the same for all.

    I never said you don't care about this event.

    You can weep for other tragedies if you want. The emphasis is on Karbala because it was such a great tragedy. In fact, it was the biggest tragedy on the Ahlulbayt, among the many tragedies.

    Imam Hassan said: There's no day, like your day Oh Aba Abdillah.
    No I would rather not make my own innovations within Islam and avoid Sunnah of the prophet (saw). He mourned for the loss of senior sahaabah, whom were martyred during his lifetime. But he did not do any acts of Jaahiliyyah.

    (Original post by mil88)
    Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

    Most people don't stike their cheeks. (Also, what about the wife of Ibrahim in relation to this? She striked her face..?)

    What is meant by cries of Jaahilyyah?

    Sorry for missing some points but I just said what I could now and you must know by now that I am against making this event into an anniversary in such a way some or most shias do now.

    No worries about the points.

    Allahu Alam.

    Indeed
    Again,there is no need to keep bringing up that one instance of prophet Ibrahim's (AS) wife, which did not involve hitting one self occasionally, but simply a natural reaction to the amazing news. And was not self-flagellation. You can't compare it what is done by most shias on the day of Ashura every year.

    Besides, brother, avoiding to "strike their cheeks" is no better than beating their chests as a group repeatedly along with other acts of self-harm using their own hands.

    Jaahiliyyah is basically pre-Islamic ignorance. People used to mourn over their dead through loud wailing/howling/mourning, by tearing their clothes and by beating their cheeks and chests. Prophet (saw), stopped the Muslims from doing all this and guided them to observe patience by saying "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un" (Surely, we belong to Allah, and to Him we shall return).

    Allahu Alam (Allah knows best).

    I would not like to continue this on here,if you don't mind I would like to read your response if you wish to do so. But less likely I will continue as these were the only points I wanted to dicuss and from your previous responses I have my answers now.

    JZK
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    (Original post by h333)
    Again brother you are misunderstanding the verse about Ibrahim's (AS) wife. Please read the tafsir on it and you will understood it better. She was amazed, hence she struck herself upon her forehead. This was a natural reaction as it was not arranged beforehand for chest beating continuously etc unlike the gatherings held for mourning on the day of Ashura.
    To summarize, according to your belief, she hit her face and it was a "natural reaction". However, you don't seem to recognize that I can easily say, after listening to the tragedy of Karbala some people's natural reaction is to hit themselves. This can be seen easily as not all do it, in fact, from my area, most don't participate. I am not saying it's a natural reaction to wake up on Ashura every year and to hit themselves (randomly), rather after listening to the tragedy, some people's natural reaction is to do this. You seem to be avoiding this and repeating your earlier points.

    (Original post by h333)
    Ya'qub (AS) did not beat his chest or face, or shed blood or take the day of the loss of Yusuf (AS) as a ceremony or day of mourning. Instead, he remembered his missing loved one and felt sad, worry and pain because of that. He is not (and no one is) to be blamed for something like this. What is impermissible and Islam forbids are the acts of Jaahiliyyah.
    Sister, this debate was primarily due to your wording of "damage to our body". Crying that much has evidently damaged the Prophet's body.

    (Original post by h333)
    I am sorry but I still think you don't understand we are not supposed to harm ourself physically yearly, this is absolutely not part of Islam. You very well know it is impermissible for us to hit ourself repeatedly for anyone occasionally.
    Can you see how you're contention is changing sister? First you mentioned only "damaging our body" and now it's "damaging our body yearly". Presumably due to the examples that I gave about those who damaged their body.

    I would ask for evidence for the "yearly" part of your statement but I understand you don't want to continue this debate.

    (Original post by h333)
    It is not part of the Sunnah, our Prophet (saw) never engaged in these acts. On top, he has forbidden us from holding the mourning ceremonies on the death of any person.
    Interesting point, considering he himself cried and asked others to cry for his uncle.

    Ibn Hisham says, “When the Holy Prophet (SAW) returned from the Battle of Uhud, he heard voices crying for those who had been martyred. The Prophet’s (SAW) eyes filled with tears. Then, he said, “But Hamzah has no one to cry for him.” When the women of Bani ‘Abd al-Ashhal heard this, they started weeping for the uncle of the Holy Prophet (SAW).”

    (Original post by h333)
    Taraweeh and this should not even be compared as that is for own benefit and enough evidence within Islam that it was done by the prophet (saw). Taraweeh is not obligatory but sunnah.

    Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying regarding Ramadan, "Whoever prayed at night in it (the month of Ramadan) out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven."

    Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to pray (at night) in Ramadan.
    I admire your use of evidence sister, however none of these quotes prove taraweeh, all they prove is that the Prophet used to pray at night during the month of Ramadhan. Something I do as well!

    The main evidence I have seen for it is Umar (companion of Holy Prophet) naming it "bidah hasanah"

    (Original post by h333)
    You know very well that there have been/are gatherings for this event which leads to severe self-flagellation even involving bloodshed. Even then, just by agreeing with the "mourning" you will still not care for them and prevent them from doing so?
    Shias say they don't agree with all this yet when it happens in large gatherings they allow it and encourage it because they think they are showing love etc. Really? Be honest is this the best way to show love by physically harming yourself every year in front of others. This is more of showing off to me,no offence. It is like a competition just for the day or can/may even lead to one.
    I can only tell people the rules. For surely, there's no compulsion in religion.

    I don't understand how it is showing off, especially given the fact that most isn't done infront of the public. Who are they showing of to, the organisers of the mosque?

    (Original post by h333)
    Again,there is no need to keep bringing up that one instance of prophet Ibrahim's (AS) wife, which did not involve hitting one self occasionally, but simply a natural reaction to the amazing news. And was not self-flagellation. You can't compare it what is done by most shias on the day of Ashura every year.
    The difference is that this occured once and shias do it yearly.

    My contention is that, for some people, their natural reaction to listening to the event of Ashura, and this isn't even the matam that you're referring to (this occurs whilst the lecturer is reciting the tragedy). Is this not a "natural reaction"?

    (Original post by h333)
    Besides, brother, avoiding to "strike their cheeks" is no better than beating their chests as a group repeatedly along with other acts of self-harm using their own hands.
    Is this using tafsir of renowned scholard (as you mentioned at the start) or your own opinion?

    (Original post by h333)
    Jaahiliyyah is basically pre-Islamic ignorance. People used to mourn over their dead through loud wailing/howling/mourning, by tearing their clothes and by beating their cheeks and chests. Prophet (saw), stopped the Muslims from doing all this and guided them to observe patience by saying "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un" (Surely, we belong to Allah, and to Him we shall return).
    This isn't really a point, but I am actually quite interested. Do you have any objective, non biased evidence?

    (Original post by h333)
    I would not like to continue this on here,if you don't mind I would like to read your response if you wish to do so. But less likely I will continue as these were the only points I wanted to dicuss and from your previous responses I have my answers now.

    JZK
    No worries sister. If you don't want to continue this, then it shall end (unless someone else has a go!)
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    (Original post by mil88)
    To summarize, according to your belief, she hit her face and it was a "natural reaction". However, you don't seem to recognize that I can easily say, after listening to the tragedy of Karbala some people's natural reaction is to hit themselves. This can be seen easily as not all do it, in fact, from my area, most don't participate. I am not saying it's a natural reaction to wake up on Ashura every year and to hit themselves (randomly), rather after listening to the tragedy, some people's natural reaction is to do this. You seem to be avoiding this and repeating your earlier points.
    :erm: it is according to Islam/Qu'ran.

    I really don't know what more to say tbh. This practice of gathering and mourning for the dead every year let alone gathering to beat your chest etc while mourning, no matter what the status of the person, is not within Islam as the prophet (SAW) did not practice this.

    No one said you can't cry hearing about an event but because it is not new to us we should have control over ourselves and not mourn/wail loudly in large gatherings as this looks more like a ceremony held, which we as Muslims are not supposed to do every year for the dead/martyrs, no matter how tragic the event.

    Do you still not understand what I am trying to say? We can't mark it as a ceremony because in Islam there is no mention of marking the day of Ashura to gather and mourn. It is not part of the Sunnah. In fact on the 10th of Muharram we are recommended highly by our beloved Prophet (SAW) to fast.

    (Original post by mil88)
    Sister, this debate was primarily due to your wording of "damage to our body". Crying that much has evidently damaged the Prophet's body.
    Wording it that way or say self-harm purposely, at the end of the day, you know and I have made it clear (if not sorry) that self-flagellation and self-harm is impermissible and we should try to avoid any acts that will lead us to this insha'Allah. If someone is repeatedly beating themself emotionally then you would try to make them calm down and remind them not to.

    (Original post by mil88)
    Can you see how you're contention is changing sister? First you mentioned only "damaging our body" and now it's "damaging our body yearly". Presumably due to the examples that I gave about those who damaged their body.

    I would ask for evidence for the "yearly" part of your statement but I understand you don't want to continue this debate.
    I said harming ourself physically as in you hitting yourself on purpose repeatedly. No the examples you gave are not right sorry. They did not hit themselves repeatedly let alone every year.

    Hmm not sure what you mean by evidence. This clearly happens every year with shias and they are fine with it as you are too. I know shias too from my country and they do gather together to mourn which lead to hitting on chest or face throughout. On top, worse things happen in gatherings of men where they stand in lines and continuously beat themselves (not even mentioning the tools used as you are against that apparently, yet when it is done on the day everyone seems to encourage it and mourn along with them in stead of stopping the act). As a result blood is shed too most of the time in those gatherings. Those that don't use any tools, still you see the people in physical pain due to the acts. Not to mention the marks they leave on their skin/body etc

    Some shias are against it completely like me, I know some families, as not part of Islam to engage in such acts so they stay away and just remember it. Then, there are shias that defend the act proudly too and say it is all permissible. And then you have the ones that say one is allowed to beat themselves as their will when remembering the event but without usage of any knives, chains etc

    So who are following the fatwas properly?

    (Original post by mil88)
    Interesting point, considering he himself cried and asked others to cry for his uncle.

    Ibn Hisham says, “When the Holy Prophet (SAW) returned from the Battle of Uhud, he heard voices crying for those who had been martyred. The Prophet’s (SAW) eyes filled with tears. Then, he said, “But Hamzah has no one to cry for him.” When the women of Bani ‘Abd al-Ashhal heard this, they started weeping for the uncle of the Holy Prophet (SAW).”
    Do you not understand that marking an event to mourn every year for it despite it not being the Sunnah of Prophet (SAW) is bid'ah?

    (Original post by mil88)
    I admire your use of evidence sister, however none of these quotes prove taraweeh, all they prove is that the Prophet used to pray at night during the month of Ramadhan. Something I do as well!

    The main evidence I have seen for it is Umar (companion of Holy Prophet) naming it "bidah hasanah"
    Hmm this was interesting so have you never performed taraweeh in congregation at a mosque?

    Taraweeh (the extra night prayers during Ramadan) is well known among Muslims to have been performed by our Prophet ( SAW) even in congregation hence this is Sunnah.

    Both al-Bukhaari (1129) and Muslim (761) narrated from ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) prayed one night in the mosque, and the people followed him in prayer. Then he prayed the next night, and many people came. Then they gathered on the third or fourth night, and the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not come out to them. The next morning he said: “I saw what you did, and nothing kept me from coming out to you except the fact that I feared that it would be made obligatory for you.” And that was in Ramadan.

    (Original post by mil88)
    I can only tell people the rules. For surely, there's no compulsion in religion.

    I don't understand how it is showing off, especially given the fact that most isn't done infront of the public. Who are they showing of to, the organisers of the mosque?

    The difference is that this occured once and shias do it yearly.

    My contention is that, for some people, their natural reaction to listening to the event of Ashura, and this isn't even the matam that you're referring to (this occurs whilst the lecturer is reciting the tragedy). Is this not a "natural reaction"?
    Same here.

    Please show where it says in Islam to mourn and engage in loud lamentation for the martyrs every year?

    (Original post by mil88)
    Is this using tafsir of renowned scholard (as you mentioned at the start) or your own opinion?

    This isn't really a point, but I am actually quite interested. Do you have any objective, non biased evidence?
    Because you are focusing so much on that verse despite it being so simple to understand what she did ( which was definitely not hit herself to hurt herself on purpose but one simple/natural reaction) and why. You can't take this examaple and use to justify chest beating etc done on purpose continuously despite aware of the fact that they are hitting themselves yet not stopping (which is not necessary at all). I am sorry this is not sensible for me. At the end of the day we follow the sunnah of the prophet SAW right? And if he did not engage in such acts of chest beatng while mourning etc then there is no need and we know it to be unnnecessary and useless.

    The question on non-biased evidence?
    Well if you are talking about Islam then you have to use the evidence within Islam eg Qu'ran, authentic hadith etc

    Idk. Wbu?

    (Original post by mil88)
    No worries sister. If you don't want to continue this, then it shall end (unless someone else has a go!)
    I thought I won't respond but have now. I really am shocked though you believe self-flagellation/self-harm is ok in Islam if one gets emotional and should be encouraged instead of stopped. If you would have said that no it is wrong but it can happen while mourning and so I can help by remidning them in the situation, I would have somehow understood that ok you as a shia don't approve of these acts thankfully. However, you will let them be and rather not do your job of reminding them makes me worried. Imagine someone beating their chest while mourning, instead the people surrounding him calming him down, they also join in. This does happen and be honest.

    I think we are going in cirlces. I have come to the conclusion that you think it is accepatable to mourn every year for this event and any self-flagellation as a reuslt of it is too. Whereas, I disagree and would avoid engaging in such acts, but can still remember the event to myself. Plus, would try to fast on the day of Ashura to follow the Sunnah. Hence, we should leave it as this now. Sorry for giving you questions, don't have to answer them.
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    (Original post by h333)
    x.
    These are my brief responses and I have decided not to carry this on further.

    1. You keep saying about "beating" where as I am being more generic, using the original term used "damaging". Despite the context or justification, there are role models who have damaged their bodies; thus such acts do have a basis in Islam. Your issue on "natural reaction" is one that you are producing, it's not mentioned in the Quran or told by the Ahlulbayt about which reactions are allowed. When some people listen to Ashura, they cry (natural reaction) and some hit themselves (natural reaction)

    2. After me bringing evidence for "damaging one's body", you then still say 'you can't do this every year' (thus the "yearly" issue that I raised). However, I also believe this to be another point, not supported by evidence.

    3. Once again, you make a difference between shias hitting themselves and the Prophet damaging himself by mourning excessively or a wife of a Prophet striking her face. From the original debate on "damaging one's body", such differences are irrelevant.

    4. You say mourning yearly is bidah and I asked for non biased evidence.

    5. Well considering it is not wajib, some shias are allowed to be against it.

    6. You made the point of the Prophet not mourning, I then gave evidence of him and the women crying for his uncle, and then you change to the "yearly" arguement again.

    7. Considering I don't follow such hadiths, I would obviously differ on whether taraweeh was practiced. You also didn't answer my point about the taraweeh and slack of sleep issue, rather you just said (paraphrased) "because the Prophet allowed it, it is allowed" which didn't the question.

    8. I gave you some of the evidences for people who revere who damaged their bodies, and I gave evidences for the Holy Prophet mourning for the dead. Thus, the thing left is the "yearly" issue, once again.

    Also considering Imam Hussain on Ashura said the following lines (paraphrased):

    "Oh my shias, whenever you are thirsty, remember my thirst"

    "Oh my shias {followers}, whenever you are faced with a tragedy, remember my tragedy"

    9. I will try to simplify this: people listen to the tragedy and cry (the crying is natural reaction), whilst crying some of them hit their bodies (therefore a natural reaction as they feel they need to hit themselves as per their emotions.).

    Thus, crying and hitting (in this context) is natural reaction.

    QED

    10. I said non biased evidence because your evidence is from Bukhari et al (the 5/6 main sunni hadith books)

    11. The only time I have seen people stop the mourners, is when doing zanjir (which I already disagree with)

    12. I have never said "any self flagellation is ok". On numerous occasions I have said my opinion.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    x
    Ok brother dw. Just to let you know I want good for you

    I would just like you to watch this short video regarding mourning:
    https://youtu.be/Sb8iGvKsBpw

    Many events within Islam can make someone emotional, but majority do not start or would not start beating themself because of it. Many stories of our Prophets (PBU them all) can make us emotional because of what they went through, but I don't find myself, hurting myself physically because of it. Instead I appreciate it and maybe feel emotional but not mourn in the way that would lead me to hit myself repeatedly. Many Muslims refrain from this and do the same. If you know you are the type of person to start beating yourself as a result of a tragic event, then would be best not to engage in such an atmosphere which would lead you to the unecessary action. Instead ask for sabr from Allah swt. This does not mean that you can't cry, yes it is ok if you feel like crying while asking for sabr, just be careful to not do other actions such as chest beating etc

    "All the authentic jurists are unanimous on the point that the mourning of this type is impermissible. Even Sayyidina Hussayn shortly before his demise had advised his beloved sister Sayyidinah Zaynab, may Allah be pleased with her, at not to mourn over his death in this manner. He said:

    "My dear sister! I swear upon you that in case I die you shall not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor curse anyone for me or pray for your death." [Al-Kamil, Ibn Kathir, vol. 4, p. 24]"

    I would like to end it with saying. May Allah guide us both and keep us on the right path and prevent us from falling into any unnecesaary acts (which can lead to bid'ah). Ameen.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    This thread is exclusive to the debate I was having on ISOC
    I thought that, in the Faith and Spirituality section, debates are not allowed

    in the past, I was sanctioned for debating here
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I thought that, in the Faith and Spirituality section, debates are not allowed

    in the past, I was sanctioned for debating here
    Evidently I was not cognisant of this at the time of making the thread.

    Nonetheless, the debate is finished.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I thought that, in the Faith and Spirituality section, debates are not allowed

    in the past, I was sanctioned for debating here
    If that were true, I'd probably be banned by now
 
 
 
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