Brexit - view of a young German travelling UK

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    A young (now student) cycled from Dover to Scotland and after her trip isn't surprised anymore why Brexit happened.

    https://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/a...lich-sind.html

    If you don't read German, try your browser's translation tool. Pretty damning account really of the attitude of the average Brexiter (and yes, Brexiters of TSR are not the typical Brexit voters/supporters).
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    I think many Brexiteers do come at this from a position of ignorance. But so do many Remainers, and also many Europeans don't try to put themselves in Britain's shoes and think about it from a perspective other than their own.

    As an island race, as a nation that has always been somewhat apart from Europe and which has had to defend its freedom from continental tyrants on several occasions, as a nation that had a large empire and often looked to other parts of the world like Africa, Asia, Oceania and the Americas... we naturally have a different worldview to the Europeans. We have a link to Asia, the Americas, etc by way of our relationship with our daughter democracies like Australia and New Zealand.

    I can totally understand that after a 20th century that was awful for large parts of Europe, where they suffered two world wars on their soil and then years of fascism or communism (the former for southern Europe, the latter for eastern Europe).. I can understand that they are much more willing to give up their sovereignty. I can also understand that not being a part of the Anglosphere, they also feel somewhat more insecure about Europe's relative decline in importance and wary of a world where an English-speaking nation (the USA) is predominant. All these are understandable and I applaud them for following their desire to extinguish all forms of nationalism. But in this country we don't have a recent history of jingiostic and murderous dictators. We haven't suffered century after century of occupation and massacres resulting from nationalistic fervour. In this country we didn't have 6 million Jews and other minorities murdered in living memory. So we don't have the same driving mindset as they do to extinguish a mindset, nationalistic though it is, that for us has been associated with freedom and singular/unique identity rather than hatred and mass murder.

    Part of the problem is that many Europeans seem so insecure about this whole thing that they we can't just say, "Well, thanks for the good times [in the EU]. We appreciate it, but we have a different path. We truly wish you all the best". Their response is, "How dare you leave. We hate you. You're an idiot and a racist if you want to leave the EU". I don't want to be part of a club that has that kind of attitude.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I don't want to be part of a club that has that kind of attitude.
    Much like we don't want to be selfish nations whose majority descends upon racist nationalism, and go back to those countries we enslaved so long ago. Yes, we would have liked to have you on board, but now that you have shown your true colors, we know better.

    It's all good then.
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    She doesn't actually say that much.

    She remarks that the northern cities looked poor. This is true but I am not sure how much different it makes Britain from other countries. The Rhineland cities in Germany look like the post-industrial cities in Britain and many parts of the former East Germany look much worse. Southern Italy is much poorer and more squalid than anywhere in Britain. Yet there is not much agitation for leaving the EU in those places. And why would there be? It is not obvious why the EU would be responsible for certain cities being poor.

    She concludes that the referendum was mainly about immigration. That is probably true but something that is well known. She describes Eastern Europeans fighting in the streets, claiming welfare, and sending welfare money to families in Eastern Europe (which struck me as a more right wing description than any British remainian would give!). She did give one reason why the British are more bothered by this than the Germans: war guilt on the part of the Germans. But I am not convinced the Germans would leave the EU if not for war guilt either.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    She doesn't actually say that much.

    She remarks that the northern cities looked poor. This is true but I am not sure how much different it makes Britain from other countries. The Rhineland cities in Germany look like the post-industrial cities in Britain and many parts of the former East Germany look much worse. Southern Italy is much poorer and more squalid than anywhere in Britain. Yet there is not much agitation for leaving the EU in those places. And why would there be? It is not obvious why the EU would be responsible for certain cities being poor.

    She concludes that the referendum was mainly about immigration. That is probably true but something that is well known. She describes Eastern Europeans fighting in the streets, claiming welfare, and sending welfare money to families in Eastern Europe (which struck me as a more right wing description than any British remainian would give!). She did give one reason why the British are more bothered by this than the Germans: war guilt on the part of the Germans. But I am not convinced the Germans would leave the EU if not for war guilt either.
    No.
    The point is that those unhappy are easily manipulated. See Trump. It is a damning indictment against America that that cretin has made it so far in the race. In fact, there are many Brexiters on this forum who actually champion him. Same story with Brexit, it's all the EUs fault, it's all foreigners fault, on our own we will be great again. And that is the majority. In Germany, while momentarily having success (mostly just because of refugee policy and let's face it, a million in a year was just too much) the AfD are nowhere near the majority, not even in the East.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No.
    The point is that those unhappy are easily manipulated.
    First I have disputed that there are more unhappy people in Britain than elsewhere. It's possible that Brits are less happy than Germans - Germany is doing particularly well right now - but less happy than Italians? Spaniards? Greeks? It stretches credulity, to me.

    Second, even if there are lots of unhappy Brits and unhappy people are easily manipulated, why weren't they manipulated in favour of the status quo? Remain had way more professional manipulators working for it, and way more resources in general, than Leave.

    See Trump. It is a damning indictment against America that that cretin has made it so far in the race. In fact, there are many Brexiters on this forum who actually champion him. Same story with Brexit, it's all the EUs fault, it's all foreigners fault, on our own we will be great again. And that is the majority. In Germany, while momentarily having success (mostly just because of refugee policy and let's face it, a million in a year was just too much) the AfD are nowhere near the majority, not even in the East.
    Right, which is what this article doesn't explain. Germany has tons of Poles and some ugly post-industrial cities, but Germany doesn't want to leave the EU. So those things probably aren't why Britons chose to leave the EU, at least not fundamentally.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    First I have disputed that there are more unhappy people in Britain than elsewhere. It's possible that Brits are less happy than Germans - Germany is doing particularly well right now - but less happy than Italians? Spaniards? Greeks? It stretches credulity, to me.

    Second, even if there are lots of unhappy Brits and unhappy people are easily manipulated, why weren't they manipulated in favour of the status quo? Remain had way more professional manipulators working for it, and way more resources in general, than Leave.


    Right, which is what this article doesn't explain. Germany has tons of Poles and some ugly post-industrial cities, but Germany doesn't want to leave the EU. So those things probably aren't why Britons chose to leave the EU, at least not fundamentally.
    No.

    As I said above, it shows your fundamental nature. You are selfish, greedy, racist pigs.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No.

    As I said above, it shows your fundamental nature. You are selfish, greedy, racist pigs.
    And you are bad losers with an inferiority complex you poorly attempt to conceal with exaggerated arrogance.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    And you are bad losers with an inferiority complex you poorly attempt to conceal with exaggerated arrogance.
    I can't be a loser given I didn't vote...nice try though.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Much like we don't want to be selfish nations whose majority descends upon racist nationalism, and go back to those countries we enslaved so long ago. Yes, we would have liked to have you on board, but now that you have shown your true colors, we know better.

    It's all good then.
    I have yet to find a Remain supporter who is able to explain why supporting Brexit makes you racist. Xenophobia and racism are NOT the same thing. I know of plenty of Brexit supporters who are perfectly happy to have Indian doctors and South African lawyers, yet want a cap on unskilled migration.

    To be really perverse, is membership of the EU and acceptance of its open borders (only for the Europeans, mind, which are generally of the same racial background) an example of closet racism in itself?
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    I have yet to find a Remain supporter who is able to explain why supporting Brexit makes you racist. Xenophobia and racism are NOT the same thing. I know of plenty of Brexit supporters who are perfectly happy to have Indian doctors and South African lawyers, yet want a cap on unskilled migration.

    To be really perverse, is membership of the EU and acceptance of its open borders (only for the Europeans, mind, which are generally of the same racial background) an example of closet racism in itself?
    Loooooool I think that last part is the most favorite craziness pedalled by Brexiters on TSR.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Loooooool I think that last part is the most favorite craziness pedalled by Brexiters on TSR.
    If you're going to troll, at least be creative. It's pretty obvious that wanting to leave the EU isn't going to be for racist reasons, if the majority of Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobic reasons in some cases of immigration. But as I said already, xenophobia and racism is not the same thing.

    That said, if you're some white supremacist, it makes logical sense that if you have to have immigration (as we do have to have immigration, given our size) you would rather prioritise European immigration. Makes it harder for those pesky African / Asian / Caribbean folk to gain entrance, after all. And such people are generally much more willing to embrace multiculturalism when the cultures in question are predominantly European. European culture carries connotations of cosmopolitan sophistication, everywhere else is apparently uncivilised.
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    (Original post by AnnieGakusei)
    If you're going to troll, at least be creative. It's pretty obvious that wanting to leave the EU isn't going to be for racist reasons, if the majority of Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobic reasons in some cases of immigration. But as I said already, xenophobia and racism is not the same thing.

    That said, if you're some white supremacist, it makes logical sense that if you have to have immigration (as we do have to have immigration, given our size) you would rather prioritise European immigration. Makes it harder for those pesky African / Asian / Caribbean folk to gain entrance, after all. And such people are generally much more willing to embrace multiculturalism when the cultures in question are predominantly European. European culture carries connotations of cosmopolitan sophistication, everywhere else is apparently uncivilised.
    It is actually pretty obvious that for a large part, that was exactly the reason. Shutting your eyes doesn't make it not so.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    It is actually pretty obvious that for a large part, that was exactly the reason. Shutting your eyes doesn't make it not so.
    You sound like you're agreeing with me. Care to elaborate?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No.
    The point is that those unhappy are easily manipulated. See Trump. It is a damning indictment against America that that cretin has made it so far in the race. In fact, there are many Brexiters on this forum who actually champion him. Same story with Brexit, it's all the EUs fault, it's all foreigners fault, on our own we will be great again. And that is the majority. In Germany, while momentarily having success (mostly just because of refugee policy and let's face it, a million in a year was just too much) the AfD are nowhere near the majority, not even in the East.
    Until you respect those with drastically different opinions, you can never get into their mind, to understand why the think in a certain manner.

    It's not as simple as you think.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    No.
    The point is that those unhappy are easily manipulated. See Trump. It is a damning indictment against America that that cretin has made it so far in the race. In fact, there are many Brexiters on this forum who actually champion him. Same story with Brexit, it's all the EUs fault, it's all foreigners fault, on our own we will be great again. And that is the majority. In Germany, while momentarily having success (mostly just because of refugee policy and let's face it, a million in a year was just too much) the AfD are nowhere near the majority, not even in the East.
    leave daddy alone
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Much like we don't want to be selfish nations whose majority descends upon racist nationalism, and go back to those countries we enslaved so long ago. Yes, we would have liked to have you on board, but now that you have shown your true colors, we know better.

    It's all good then.
    Racist nationalism, insofar as it leads to mass murder, is more a continental European trait. Given 6 million Jews and millions of others were killed as a result of continental European nationalistic/racist fervour, it is understandable that they seek to extinguish anything associated with nationalism. Ideas around nationalism jingoism resulted in parts of Europe being ruled by dictatorial fascists, as they had in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece and Germany during parts of the 20th century,

    We didn't do that kind of thing in this country (slaughter millions of Jews, have dictators ruling over us justified by petty nationalistic grievances, etc) and so we have much less reason to fear a mild nationalism that has been associated with our freedom and independence, and our singular identity. Britain has had continuous rule of law since the late 17th century, and the last time we had a real dictator was the 1650s. Britain has proven its stability, its internal tolerance, its ability to resist petty nationalistisms, for centuries now; we have nothing to prove. Europe still has much to prove in that area given how many Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, communists etc were killed in living memory. Unfortunately it seems that these days many continental Europeans are pouring their nationalistic and jingoistic impulses into an EU nationalism/imperialism. It is through the EU that they find their nationalistic gratification, their sense of vicarious power.

    If British nationalism bred the sort of violence that Prussian nationalism did, then I would be just as concerned as the Europeans are to stamp it out. But given it didn't, I don't. As I said, given continental Europe's extremely violent recent history I understand they are driven to avoid repeating history, but the UK cannot be judged by those standards. Judging the UK for leaving the EU by the same standards a continental European country would be judged (and perhaps seen to be backsliding towards fascism) is not logical.

    As for "It's all good then", I agree; it is all good. I wish Europe all the best, we will continue to be the closest of friends, to trade with each other, to live in each other's countries, to stand shoulder-to-shoulder against common threats. We are not the ones who are saying, "You don't want to be part of the club? **** you then. We punish"
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Racist nationalism, insofar as it leads to mass murder, is more a continental European trait.

    As for "It's all good then", I agree; it is all good. I wish Europe all the best, we will continue to be the closest of friends, to trade with each other, to live in each other's countries, to stand shoulder-to-shoulder against common threats. We are not the ones who are saying, "You don't want to be part of the club? **** you then. We punish"
    You forget about the British slaughtering natives in far off lands, like in Australia.

    in the EU its easier to trade and to move to live in each others lands and to stand as one.
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    (Original post by DeathGuardElite)
    You forget about the British slaughtering natives in far off lands, like in Australia.
    I'm not forgetting about it, but I'm taking the position that such things were not inherent in the UK's political culture and it certainly was not characteristic of its internal political/social dynamic. Even to this day, foreign citizens will be considered to have less rights than UK citizens by our government; we find it much easier to kill a foreign terrorist with a drone than one of our own. And we'd do things overseas (firing a missile at a car from a drone, for example) that we wouldn't do at home. I do think that how a country treats its citizens internally does count for something; that this is the major element in considering how free, how just, a country is.

    It is simply a fact that this country has not had internal pogroms, it has not had tribal warfare, it has not had ethnic cleansing, it has not had dictators and absolute rulers, for a very long time. Our continuous record of the rule of law reaches back to the 17th century; we have not had a true dictator since Cromwell and even before Cromwell there was a degree of freedom, of adherence to the rule of law, in English society that was alien to continental Europe. And I believe this culture of law, this opposition to absolutism, matters; it's not a coincidence that we didn't have a holocaust, or a hitler, or a Napoleon.

    in the EU its easier to trade and to move to live in each others lands and to stand as one.
    What do you mean "stand as one"? Militarily? We don't need the EU to stand as one; we do it just fine through NATO. In fact the UK and US stand as one (along with Australia) very firmly and effectively (in fact, more so than say France does with Germany). We don't need to be in an Anglosphere union, we are bound by common affection, shared history, shared sacrifice, shared language, shared culture etc etc. As I said, the UK doesn't need the EU to temper and extinguish the murderous nationalistic tendencies from which continental Europe suffered because we don't have them and haven't for a very long time
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I'm not forgetting about it, but I'm taking the position that such things were not inherent in the UK's political culture and it certainly was not characteristic of its internal political/social dynamic. Even to this day, foreign citizens will be considered to have less rights than UK citizens by our government; we find it much easier to kill a foreign terrorist with a drone than one of our own. And we'd do things overseas (firing a missile at a car from a drone, for example) that we wouldn't do at home. I do think that how a country treats its citizens internally does count for something; that this is the major element in considering how free, how just, a country is.

    It is simply a fact that this country has not had internal pogroms, it has not had tribal warfare, it has not had ethnic cleansing, it has not had dictators and absolute rulers, for a very long time. Our continuous record of the rule of law reaches back to the 17th century; we have not had a true dictator since Cromwell and even before Cromwell there was a degree of freedom, of adherence to the rule of law, in English society that was alien to continental Europe. And I believe this culture of law, this opposition to absolutism, matters; it's not a coincidence that we didn't have a holocaust, or a hitler, or a Napoleon.



    What do you mean "stand as one"? Militarily? We don't need the EU to stand as one; we do it just fine through NATO. In fact the UK and US stand as one (along with Australia) very firmly and effectively (in fact, more so than say France does with Germany). We don't need to be in an Anglosphere union, we are bound by common affection, shared history, shared sacrifice, shared language, shared culture etc etc. As I said, the UK doesn't need the EU to temper and extinguish the murderous nationalistic tendencies from which continental Europe suffered because we don't have them and haven't for a very long time
    Still doesn't really answer our colonial mass slaughters it doesn't matter if it was specific its all mass murder,
    Own that crap its part of our history dont be ashamed by it.

    I think the British state should be judged on how we treat other people also rather then focusing on how we treat our own, the same citizens who are fine with mass government watching with Cameras and their new laws on Internet porn.

    Well NATO is only useful against foreign countries and was formed as a threat to the Soviet Union which then made the Warsaw pact etc etc on Nato.

    the UK and USA special relations are a very poisonous thing, Australia was dragged by the USA into a BS war(Vietnam) and they haven't fully gotten over that either.

    If we were bound to europe by what you say we wouldn't have basically told them to **** off and then acted shocked when they tell us to **** off too. the UK has nationalist tendencies we just used to throw them in the Army and let them murder natives in far away lands out of sight out of mind, we've always had them hell we even have tribalism issues with the whole England-Wales-Scotland-Ireland crap

    i'd prefer if you also took the other two points rather then just last perhaps it was due to it being the easiest to counter?
 
 
 
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