Whats the best solution for Brexit now? Watch

Laurence010401
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#41
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#41
(Original post by SparkleNat)
I would love for you to tell me how 48,1 and 51.9 are closer to 4% different, nevermind politics, you should be looking at your math skills buddy
It is closer to 4 and 2
The difference between 48.1 and 51.9 is 3.8
3.8 is much closer to 4 than 2, and if you haven’t realised that then you are the one that needs to improve your maths skills
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ColinDent
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#42
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(Original post by SparkleNat)
I would love for you to tell me how 48,1 and 51.9 are closer to 4% different, nevermind politics, you should be looking at your math skills buddy
Erm it's 3.8% difference, that in my book is nearly 4%, which particular maths ( with an s because we ain't Yankees) course teaches you differently?
There is no credence in arguing that if a certain percentage of people voted a different way, when they didn't.
What you are deliberately trying to mislead about is a swing in voting, not actual votes.
Last edited by ColinDent; 4 weeks ago
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Bashtopher
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#43
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(Original post by z-hog)
You make the case totally dependent on parliamentary sovereignty and that's fine, the problem is this: Parliament's brief is to implement Brexit in whatever terms they like but they must do so. There is no going back on anything until that instruction by the electorate is met, instead we have a sizeable enough body of MPs committed to sabotaging and annulling the process. That's anti-democratic.

Nearly 500 of them signed up to it at the time article 50 was invoked, they said we had two years to negotiate a deal with the EU and if one couldn't be worked out the UK would leave without one. Then they shot down the only one the EU will offer and set out to make it 'illegal' to leave without one, leaving us where we are. I genuinely believe Brexit has been blocked, what's the way out? It's a catalogue of things enough to aggravate any democrat and to make the idea of a second referendum a red line. Of course that Remainers are prepared to overlook all that, that's understandable up to a point.
I do not make the case solely dependent on parliamentary sovereignty, I was highlighting someone else's flawed argument (which is also yours too it seems). Parliamentarians are not meant to blindly represent their constituents, they are also meant to use their judgment on their behalf. It is ridiculous for an informed turkey to be bound vote for Christmas because the turkeys he represents don't know the end result. It's not anti-democratic for the very reason that constituents don't even follow of the things that Mps vote for. And if their constituents require their mp to vote for something that will make everyone poorer, their mp is right to take on a leadership role and vote alternatively. This is on the best interests of the country, not some uninformed turkeys.

Parliament doesn't have a brief. Parliament is sovereign. It may have to debate certain things, it does not have to pass anything. It is sovereign. The government has a brief, which is better known as a "mandate". Parliament has no mandate. This is basic British constitutional law. If the government didn't set red lines, their negotiating position wouldn't have been compromised. If the government had sought parliaments approval sooner, a deal could have been reached in time. The government has delayed and delayed, not parliament. Just one example, the government initially had a deal with the EU in November, and put it before parliament in January!
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Bashtopher
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#44
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#44
(Original post by ColinDent)
So you don't feel that the predominantly remain parliamentarians are causing the problem regards moving on with brexit, I would personally not only blame the most hardcore of brexiteers, but also a much larger portion of parliamentarians that has been working to keep us within the confines of the EU.
There are some ( remainers) that try to argue that this is for the good of the country, but that particular argument is generally made by privileged middle class types that are really trying to say that we working classes didn't really know what we signed up for when voting to leave the EU.
F**k them and f**k the EU
I'm working class, and I think you don't know what you signed up for. You make arguments based on sovereignty but don't understand it. You don't realise that "remainer" politicians have voted for a number of leave options, that hardcore brexiteers won't. You don't understand that the government has delayed parliament's involvement, and that it would be irresponsible for any MP to vote to make a country poorer. In fact, you don't address any economic argument, you just insist on "embracing" and some form of positive thinking. You're unable to point out on risk or drawback of leaving the EU, it's all sunshine and rainbows to you. You are also unaware of the number of Eurosceptic MEPs from other countries.

From all this i can definitely surmise that your poorly informed on this topic. When it comes down to it, you just have a "f**k everything" attitude. Shame really.
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paul514
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Bashtopher)
I'm working class, and I think you don't know what you signed up for. You make arguments based on sovereignty but don't understand it. You don't realise that "remainer" politicians have voted for a number of leave options, that hardcore brexiteers won't. You don't understand that the government has delayed parliament's involvement, and that it would be irresponsible for any MP to vote to make a country poorer. In fact, you don't address any economic argument, you just insist on "embracing" and some form of positive thinking. You're unable to point out on risk or drawback of leaving the EU, it's all sunshine and rainbows to you. You are also unaware of the number of Eurosceptic MEPs from other countries.

From all this i can definitely surmise that your poorly informed on this topic. When it comes down to it, you just have a "f**k everything" attitude. Shame really.
The only attitude any brexit supporter need have is I have won a democratic vote now implement it....

They don’t need to engage in debates pro leave or remain that campaign ended three years ago but your side didn’t get the memo apparently
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SparkleNat
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Laurence010401)
It is closer to 4 and 2
The difference between 48.1 and 51.9 is 3.8
3.8 is much closer to 4 than 2, and if you haven’t realised that then you are the one that needs to improve your maths skills
I would like to remind you that we are talking in percentages, and that therefore the only numbers we're ccounting to see the difference in votes are those ABOVE 50%. The leave votes were higher by 1.9%, aka 2%. The remain votes were down by 1.9%, aka 2%. They were both either 2% higher or 2% lower than a perfect 50/50. That means, that there was only a 2% difference in the result of the referendum. Next time you try to be an ass, at least get your favts right.
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SparkleNat
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#47
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#47
(Original post by ColinDent)
Erm it's 3.8% difference, that in my book is nearly 4%, which particular maths ( with an s because we ain't Yankees) course teaches you differently?
There is no credence in arguing that if a certain percentage of people voted a different way, when they didn't.
What you are deliberately trying to mislead about is a swing in voting, not actual votes.
I would like to remind you that we are talking in percentages, and that therefore the only numbers we're ccounting to see the difference in votes are those ABOVE 50%. The leave votes were higher by 1.9%, aka 2%. The remain votes were down by 1.9%, aka 2%. They were both either 2% higher or 2% lower than a perfect 50/50. That means, that there was only a 2% difference in the result of the referendum
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Bashtopher
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#48
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(Original post by paul514)
The only attitude any brexit supporter need have is I have won a democratic vote now implement it....

They don’t need to engage in debates pro leave or remain that campaign ended three years ago but your side didn’t get the memo apparently
1. That is not the only attitude a brexit supporter ought to have. At the very least, a sensible Brexiter would think "we won a vote to leave, let's now find the most sensible way to leave". Leaving without a good deal will make us significantly poorer. If that is what you want, I don't understand you.

2. The referendum was advisory. Not legally binding. Also, democracy does not live and die on one day, one vote. The very essence of democracy is a continuing conversation to ensure society implements what society wants. It's why one general election does not mean we are governed by the same party forever.

3. If you paid attention to my posts, I tried to address the issue of how to leave. As much as I want to remain, I accept the referendum result, and think we can use an alternative style of referendum to find out how people think it's best to leave. I've already set out the advantages of my method in previous posts.

4. Vote leave broke the law. They cheated. There are definitely grounds for further debate, whether you like it or not.

5. You'll also notice that I was not debating on some points (like parliamentary sovereignty etc), I was stating facts that the other poster was clearly unaware of, or completely misinformed. Maybe by that dodgy Vote Leave campaign, eh?

6. What "your side" seems incapable of doing is constructively engaging with "my side" even when we have accepted the referendum result and are offering a way forward. Which is what I have done. I included remain as an option in my Alternative Voting referendum because it is a potential way forward, and I know how important democracy is to brexiteers. This is the most democratic thing to do, so I'm sure they wouldn't want it left out.

7. If you don't agree with remain being in what I proposed earlier, ask yourself if you could take it out and then agree with what I proposed. Just 4 different options of leaving. If you think you couldn't (because you don't like a customs union or a single market), and you blindly want no deal or Theresa May's deal (which have been forecasted as the least financially viable options), then it is people who think like you that is delaying brexit. Not people like me who are trying to find a way of how to brexit.
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DragonsOfAsshai
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#49
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#49
The fact is there is no solution to the irish border unless we stay in a customs union or there is a customs arrangement, which is not really worth it because we'd be governed by many EU rules and not have a say in any of it
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Laurence010401
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#50
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#50
(Original post by SparkleNat)
I would like to remind you that we are talking in percentages, and that therefore the only numbers we're ccounting to see the difference in votes are those ABOVE 50%. The leave votes were higher by 1.9%, aka 2%. The remain votes were down by 1.9%, aka 2%. They were both either 2% higher or 2% lower than a perfect 50/50. That means, that there was only a 2% difference in the result of the referendum. Next time you try to be an ass, at least get your favts right.
Sorry I thought you were talking about the difference between the vote turnouts. Since I now know you are talking about the difference between 50% and the leave vote turnout, yes 51.9 is 1.9 more than 50, and 1.9 is closer to 2 than 4.
And it’s sad that in this day and age, no one can say anything without people thinking they are ‘being an ass’
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ColinDent
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#51
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#51
(Original post by SparkleNat)
I would like to remind you that we are talking in percentages, and that therefore the only numbers we're ccounting to see the difference in votes are those ABOVE 50%. The leave votes were higher by 1.9%, aka 2%. The remain votes were down by 1.9%, aka 2%. They were both either 2% higher or 2% lower than a perfect 50/50. That means, that there was only a 2% difference in the result of the referendum
Yes, but the simple fact is that those 1.9% of people DID vote that way therefore the difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain was, factually, 3.8%
Edit, I fully understand the point about being 1.9% over the 50% mark but it's a cheap shot to try to make the margin of victory sound smaller.
Last edited by ColinDent; 4 weeks ago
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paul514
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#52
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#52
(Original post by ColinDent)
Yes, but the simple fact is that those 1.9% of people DID vote that way therefore the difference between those who voted to leave and those who voted to remain was, factually, 3.8%
Edit, I fully understand the point about being 1.9% over the 50% mark but it's a cheap shot to try to make the margin of victory sound smaller.
To put it into some interesting terms you would need more people to vote remain than all the leavers who voted in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for remain to have the same majority that brexit got
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RogerOxon
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#53
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#53
(Original post by DragonsOfAsshai)
I just hope we don't do a soft Brexit, that would be like half leaving and being still governed by some EU laws without having a say in it. I'd rather have a hard Brexit or no leaving at all but they need to decide fast as the longer they wait the more companies leave the uk
Do you have any idea what a hard Brexit would look like?
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quirky editor
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#54
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#54
A public vote on which brexit option the public wants.
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DragonsOfAsshai
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#55
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#55
(Original post by RogerOxon)
Do you have any idea what a hard Brexit would look like?
By hard Brexit I mean not soft Brexit, should have clarified that. So, like TM's deal is what I mean.
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AnxiousAtypical
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#56
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#56
No deal, because no deal is the only option that constitutes the Brexit that 17.4 million people like me voted for.
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returnmigrant
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#57
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#57
Read this :
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8850406.html

We only have 'control' by staying IN.
Therefore we need to revoke Article 50.
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Bashtopher
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#58
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#58
(Original post by AnxiousAtypical)
No deal, because no deal is the only option that constitutes the Brexit that 17.4 million people like me voted for.
How do you know that the other 17.4 million people voted for a "no deal" brexit? The question was a simple choice between "leave" and "remain". Not how we should leave or remain. You can't possibly know anything of the sort.
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AnxiousAtypical
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#59
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#59
(Original post by Bashtopher)
How do you know that the other 17.4 million people voted for a "no deal" brexit? The question was a simple choice between "leave" and "remain". Not how we should leave or remain. You can't possibly know anything of the sort.
Any other motion that isn’t No Deal is not Leave, it’s Remain.
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Bashtopher
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#60
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#60
(Original post by AnxiousAtypical)
Any other motion that isn’t No Deal is not Leave, it’s Remain.
That's simply not true. We would not be a member of the European Union under May's deal, the customs union motion or the single market motion. Therefore we would have left the European Union. You may not like May's deal, the customs union or the single market, but it is completely false to say that they are "remain" when all three literally involve leaving the European Union. They all stay loyal to the result of the referendum - which merely states the people want to leave the EU. Just as a reminder to people, the actual referendum question was:

"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

The referendum decided no more than that - leave or remain. Nothing about how to leave. Nothing about no deal. I don't know why people find that so hard to understand. But then again, I don't know why people want to leave with no deal and make the country, and likely their own families, poorer.
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