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Reply 60
dan_man
Indeed, look at the continent that fell into disarray with state planned economies, oppressive nationalist leaders and the dismantling of institutions that the colonial powers built up.

Now you have tin pot, 'president' for life dictators with a private jet, a fleet of Bentleys, 50 wives while his country is starving or dying from AID's.


Well in that comment you've correctly listed much of what's wrong with Africa. But that's quite different from the frankly racist assertion that, "Africans can't [i.e are fundamentally incapable] rule themselves".
Reply 61
Gilliwoo
Well in that comment you've correctly listed much of what's wrong with Africa. But that's quite different from the frankly racist assertion that, "Africans can't [i.e are fundamentally incapable] rule themselves".


I don't see how that's racist when its the sad fact. There was an article in the Guardian I read when researching about Rhodesia a while ago which was written detailing how Mugabe destroyed one of the continents best countries and Britain should have stopped him when they had the chance as he was a Marxist and supported by Soviet funding and equipment.
Reply 62
dan_man
I don't see how that's racist when its the sad fact. There was an article in the Guardian I read when researching about Rhodesia a while ago which was written detailing how Mugabe destroyed one of the continents best countries and Britain should have stopped him when they had the chance as he was a Marxist and supported by Soviet funding and equipment.

Mugabe is African, but not all Africans are Mugabe. It is racist to speak as though the African's ability to govern himselfs is capped by evolution. The oldest country in post-colonial Africa is not much over 50 years - just about a generation old. To decide that this is evidence of what God gave Africans is a premature, and - for you at least - a comfortably racist view of the world.
Reply 63
What about Mandela? He did a pretty good job...
If only Zimbabwe had oil. The US and UK would be there in minutes.
Invade Zimbabwe and execute Mugabe.

But I'm afraid our own national security must come before humanitarian liberation. So Zimbabwe will have to come after Iran, North Korea, Syria, Lybia and Cuba.
Reply 66
Dionysus
There is an argument that seizing lands from white farmers was immoral, but how would it possibly be any more acceptable to seize lands from the black farmers again? To do so would effectively require an imperialist recolonisation...


It would be acceptable seeing as these farms were not given to landless blacks (which was the excuse given by Mugabe), but instead given to Mugabe's chums. One farm (called the Iron Farm) was given to the First Lady for her to build an orphange on. Two years later ... orphanage? What orphanage?

You get my point
Reply 67
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2274453.ece

What the hell would we send, the armed forces are over stretched as it is and isn't such an easy trip in last years jolly in the Med.
Reply 68
we're too late for zimbabwe. infact it became too late in 1980
dan_man
Indeed, look at the continent that fell into disarray with state planned economies, oppressive nationalist leaders and the dismantling of institutions that the colonial powers built up.

Now you have tin pot, 'president' for life dictators with a private jet, a fleet of Bentleys, 50 wives while his country is starving or dying from AID's.


And all thanks to the good ol' British Empire..... but that's a different debate

As for Zimbabwe, I honestly think things are coming to a head soon. The nearby Botswana, South Africa etc are getting p'd off with economic refugees and being tarred with the same brush as far as foreign investment goes. Believe it or not but the 'support' for Magabe from other SSA just isn't there anymore. Besides how long can a government with that much inflation last?
Captain Crash
And all thanks to the good ol' British Empire..... but that's a different debate

As for Zimbabwe, I honestly think things are coming to a head soon. The nearby Botswana, South Africa etc are getting p'd off with economic refugees and being tarred with the same brush as far as foreign investment goes. Believe it or not but the 'support' for Magabe from other SSA just isn't there anymore. Besides how long can a government with that much inflation last?


Zimbabwee's neighbours failed amazingly to put pressure on Mugabe at their recent summit. Instead they just asked the people to not try and leave into their countries.

And the government can last for as long as it can continue to afford to pay the security staff enough.
Reply 71
Captain Crash
And all thanks to the good ol' British Empire..... but that's a different debate


Yes, a different - and hopeless - debate.

UniOfLife
And the government can last for as long as it can continue to afford to pay the security staff enough.


Forgive my ignorance, but does Mugabe have an obvious heir apparent?
Reply 72
Agent Smith
Um, because it would stop people starving to death?


With that you're effectively suggesting that the black farmers are less competent than the white farmers. It is the fault of central government, not individual farmers.
Libertin du Nord
Forgive my ignorance, but does Mugabe have an obvious heir apparent?


No idea, why?
Reply 74
Dionysus
With that you're effectively suggesting that the black farmers are less competent than the white farmers. It is the fault of central government, not individual farmers.


While the thinly veiled suggestion there is that he is presuming black men to be inferior farmers than white men, that is not the crux of the argument to which you rail against. The white farmers in Zimbabwe are more competent because, shockingly, they actually are farmers - as opposed to some bloke who just got given a big patch of land and doesn't really know what to do with it.

Farming isn't easy, you know - I'd have a bit of respect for people who have been farming their lands for generations.

UniOfLife
No idea, why?


In relation to how long the present regime could realistically last. Presumably Mugabe's death could be rendered an irrelevance if another nutter is waiting in the wings.
Libertin du Nord
In relation to how long the present regime could realistically last. Presumably Mugabe's death could be rendered an irrelevance if another nutter is waiting in the wings.


AFAIK there is a political party to which Mugabe belongs so I suppose they'd put in place another Mugabe if he died. Unless, of course, they rip themselves apart with internal divisions.

But what is the prospect that Mugabe dies any time soon and should we just sit around doing nothing until that time comes?
Reply 76
Captain Crash
And all thanks to the good ol' British Empire..... but that's a different debate

As for Zimbabwe, I honestly think things are coming to a head soon. The nearby Botswana, South Africa etc are getting p'd off with economic refugees and being tarred with the same brush as far as foreign investment goes. Believe it or not but the 'support' for Magabe from other SSA just isn't there anymore. Besides how long can a government with that much inflation last?


Err no, the collapse of the British Empire is why the continent lacks democracy.

The reason why the white farmers did better because they had been working the lad for years and along with their black workers who were also heavily persecuted they had to leave. The black farmers who took over had no idea how to work the land as they had never been there before and most weren't even proper farmers, just party members.
Reply 77
dan_man
Err no, the collapse of the British Empire is why the continent lacks democracy.


Definition of Emppire: The domain ruled by an emperor or empress; the region over which imperial dominion is exercised. How can you possibly believe that enslaving most of a continent and subjecting it to absolute rule by Britain brings it democracy?!
Reply 78
dan_man
Err no, the collapse of the British Empire is why the continent lacks democracy.

The reason why the white farmers did better because they had been working the lad for years and along with their black workers who were also heavily persecuted they had to leave. The black farmers who took over had no idea how to work the land as they had never been there before and most weren't even proper farmers, just party members.


The collapse?? You mean the hurried and inadequate decolonisation process which attempted to give these countries freedom and independence but not to give them a starting point and leave them in the same disadvantaged and exploited position that they were in during colonial times? The British have always made a hash of things during decolonisation and I hope that England and America take their time over Iraq making sure they leave it in a safe and proper manner.
Reply 79
Dionysus
Definition of Emppire: The domain ruled by an emperor or empress; the region over which imperial dominion is exercised. How can you possibly believe that enslaving most of a continent and subjecting it to absolute rule by Britain brings it democracy?!


Spot on

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