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Brexit is a 'successs' watch

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    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...xit-might-look


    Nailed it .
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    a "new statesman" article? let me guess: sarcasm.

    my god . you are proving the remoaner stereotype. it has been 4 months now yet you're still bleating
    and your plato (the philosopher associated with hatred for democracy) avatar isn't helping
    brexit is not a short term project - it is for our long term future.
    if we have any issues now, they are growing pains. they are the price to pay for the future developments
    if you are detecting any problems now then congratulations, detective - you've understood what it takes to advance - sacrifices

    if you thought that leaving the EU in order to project ourselves more towards the international market was going to be quick and snappy then that's clearly insane - the EU is a corporate empire that is bent on trying to blur the lines between economics and politics - we as the majority here in the UK rejected that vision and now we are on the trail of separating our national politics from our own domestic economy - that is a legitimate goal, and, as you know, if there are any bumps on the way to that future, then it's because the EU, an institution that existed within UK law for 40+ years, made reversing ourselves out of such a fat and cumbersome organisation very difficult. but nobody 40 years ago anticipated that this project would become so feasting upon european democracies - they thought that the EEC would be essentially its permanent form. well since it kept creeping towards a federal continent, without massive lurches, it became so difficult to question it - that's why we had 48% of our nation thinking that it was okay - because they were so used to it - well if they had been brought up in the 70s and time travelled to 2016, they'd have been disgusted by what the EEC became. it took a lot of convincing to cause enough comprehension - it took a new political party - it took a divided conservative party too - to put the EU dream in the UK out of its misery.
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    Oh this is just so childish, it's silly to say one way or another, because of wishful thinking, that we 'know' how it's going to be, months in. Just stupid. We'd need 10 years at least, and even that depends on -

    a)The quality of government
    b)Numerous systemic, ongoing problems like inequality and debt, stacked up from years before and which would be there regardless of either outcome.

    This kind of article and constant minute by minute speculation is because journalists constantly need something to be wittering on about, and because so many remoaners(as distinct from remainers) are extremely vain and entitled and have to make sure they are right about it all and that independence is the preserve of morons. These grating people will contribute all they can to making their views a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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    I somewhat agree with the points raised by the article except that there are a few caveats.

    1) .The global economy had slowed down compared to the same period last year. Slower growth and shrinking export in China, and the fall in crude oil price had in part affected global growth especially on the EU and major oil-producing countries.

    2). It is still not clear what the government's 'reassurance' to Nissan is. The undertone of the article seem to suggest that the UK government is effectively proposing to subsidise any loss incurred by Brexit. If this is the case I am pretty certain that it is illegal, it is outside the government's power to subsidise a private company. The UK government will be sued by every other competitors in the automotive industry.

    A Q3 growth of 0.5% seems to be a very good growth especially considering the uncertainties after the Brexit vote.

    I can't see why anyone wouldn't think that our economy right now is 'so far so good'. In a way, defying expectations and maintaining a solid growth despite significant uncertainty is a 'success'. It means that we will have a strong position leading up to our official exit from the EU. Some news outlets just seem to be overly pessimistic and much too eager to predict ahead, when what we should be focusing on is making sure that every little steps we take towards Brexit is a 'success'.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    a "new statesman" article? let me guess: sarcasm.
    New statesman isn't that bad. Sure they've got done awful commentators eg Laurie penny but which paper doesn't?


    my god . you are proving the remoaner stereotype.
    Hardly. I think we should trigger article 50 and leave the Single Market. I have posted this s few times now. ..


    it has been 4 months now yet you're still bleating
    and your plato (the philosopher associated with hatred for democracy) avatar isn't helping
    brexit is not a short term project - it is for our long term future.

    if we have any issues now, they are growing pains. they are the price to pay for the future developments
    if you are detecting any problems now then congratulations, detective - you've understood what it takes to advance - sacrifices

    if you thought that leaving the EU in order to project ourselves more towards the international market was going to be quick and snappy then that's clearly insane - the EU is a corporate empire that is bent on trying to blur the lines between economics and politics - we as the majority here in the UK rejected that vision and now we are on the trail of separating our national politics from our own domestic economy - that is a legitimate goal, and, as you know, if there are any bumps on the way to that future, then it's because the EU, an institution that existed within UK law for 40+ years, made reversing ourselves out of such a fat and cumbersome organisation very difficult. but nobody 40 years ago anticipated that this project would become so feasting upon european democracies - they thought that the EEC would be essentially its permanent form. well since it kept creeping towards a federal continent, without massive lurches, it became so difficult to question it - that's why we had 48% of our nation thinking that it was okay - because they were so used to it - well if they had been brought up in the 70s and time travelled to 2016, they'd have been disgusted by what the EEC became.


    it took a lot of convincing to cause enough comprehension - it took a new political party - it took a divided conservative party too - to put the EU dream in the UK out of its misery.
    1: please provide some evidence to suggest that the EU or EEC was perceived to be a static institution by various electorates? That would clearly be insane

    2: it took a global financial crisis and our own incompetent leaders elected by the great British public to get out of the EU,

    3: as we are in a democracy we are going to be short termist in nature- how long should our scope for brexit be? Twenty years? Fifty?

    4: Although disappointed by the brexit vote- and sincere in that Britain needs to leave the EU I have never been more certain that we will see a UK in a federal European state in our life time.
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    You wont know wheres its a real success till 20-30 years down the line.
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    We won't know if Merkel's refugee policy is a success or not because one of those refugees or their descendants might solve world poverty.

    [irony]
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    New statesman isn't that bad. Sure they've got done awful commentators eg Laurie penny but which paper doesn't?
    I was hoping for an article that wasn't from a newspaper with a general political direction

    Hardly. I think we should trigger article 50 and leave the Single Market. I have posted this s few times now.
    I think your other threads have somewhat overshadowed that - also, believing that the UK should leave the single market now isn't to say you're not a remainer

    1: please provide some evidence to suggest that the EU or EEC was perceived to be a static institution by various electorates? That would clearly be insane
    do you honestly think that most people in the UK in 1975 thought the EEC would turn into the circa 2016 EU? come on - did they vote for the EEC or the EU? I mean, *we* never did. our guv'nas, lords and masters in power did. and by "static", I don't mean never changing *anything*, I meant significant changes like the changes between the EEC and the post-lisbon treaty EU

    2: it took a global financial crisis and our own incompetent leaders elected by the great British public to get out of the EU,
    not really - it took the evolution of the EU (both in terms of the rules and the members) to get us out of the EU

    3: as we are in a democracy we are going to be short termist in nature- how long should our scope for brexit be? Twenty years? Fifty?
    if you're telling me that the people in 1975 didn't just vote for the EEC but a non-static (evolving) institution, how can you then turn around and say that we in a democracy are short-termist...?

    4: Although disappointed by the brexit vote- and sincere in that Britain needs to leave the EU I have never been more certain that we will see a UK in a federal European state in our life time.
    ...um, why
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    a "new statesman" article? let me guess: sarcasm.
    A sleepysnooze post? LOL

    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    I was hoping for an article that wasn't from a newspaper with a general political direction
    There is no such thing. I think you may be confusing neutral with "agrees with sleepysnooze".


    (Original post by Davij038)
    4: Although disappointed by the brexit vote- and sincere in that Britain needs to leave the EU I have never been more certain that we will see a UK in a federal European state in our life time.
    Where has this optimism come from and can I have some?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    A sleepysnooze post? LOL
    oh I'm sorry am I a professional newspaper that attempts to convey non-partisan news? if it's not non-partisan then that just ruins the legitimacy of its information then doesn't it :|
    ...you really thought capitalising "lol" was going to make you look better rather than worse here? wow

    There is no such thing. I think you may be confusing neutral with "agrees with sleepysnooze".
    are you actually trying to say that there's no such thing as neutral news?
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    You wont know wheres its a real success till 20-30 years down the line.
    Likewise it is a total bloody disaster...
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Likewise it is a total bloody disaster...
    It seems to be popular to jump on any bit of news and declare Brexit a success or failure. Usual suspects.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    are you actually trying to say that there's no such thing as neutral news?
    Yes.

    Well no.

    Facts can be neutral obviously. Such as 500 people died in an earthquake.

    But going beyond that is always biased.

    Ok, so the UK has voted to leave the EU in a referendum. That is a fact. Anything more than that like what that means, what should be done, what are the priorities etc is going to contain subjective views. Most of what we call news is actually opinion pieces. Newspapers would be very tedious if they just contained facts.

    Interestingly I have found that right wing people are more likely to think their views are natural and neutral. They are just plain fact. Which I think explains why the right wing are often right wing. Why on earth would you change something that is inevitable? From my own experience left wing people are far more likely to admit to being biased that someone who is right wing. I also think there is a filter effect as well. In order to become left wing you have to go through a process where you recognise flaws in the current set up of things to just see them as one possible state of being that can change and is not fixed. This also includes your own views, you start to question where your own world view comes from. Do I think like a consumer because that is the natural state of being or have I been conditioned by society? Lefties took the red pill. There is no going back after you take the red pill. :no: Probably help explains why lefties are generally more miserable as well. They can no longer enjoy their fake stake
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Although disappointed by the brexit vote- and sincere in that Britain needs to leave the EU I have never been more certain that we will see a UK in a federal European state in our life time.
    In an odd sort of way I can somewhat see this too. Without Britain as an obstruction, the process will be far easier for the remaining EU states and with recent moves like closer military cooperation it seems likely. Perhaps 40-50 years down the line when this generation is more politically active, there may well be a party that stands to bring the UK into the USE. Whether this will happen or not is obviously difficult to tell, but I don't think it's an impossibility if we're looking really long-term, as many in this thread are suggesting. If Brexit turns out to be a roaring success then it won't happen, but if we do suffer economically then it may well become an alternative in the future.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    I was hoping for an article that wasn't from a newspaper with a general political direction
    Lol. Let me know when you find one.



    I think your other threads have somewhat overshadowed that - also, believing that the UK should leave the single market now isn't to say you're not a remainer
    I'm not a remainer. To turn a phrase in a Rejoiner- but we have to leave for a substantial time first.

    do you honestly think that most people in the UK in 1975 thought the EEC would turn into the circa 2016 EU? come on - did they vote for the EEC or the EU? I mean, *we* never did. our guv'nas, lords and masters in power did. and by "static", I don't mean never changing *anything*, I meant significant changes like the changes between the EEC and the post-lisbon treaty EU
    Parliamentary democracy brah. Unless you think the UK is and has always. Even a dictatorship suck it up.


    not really - it took the evolution of the EU (both in terms of the rules and the members) to get us out of the EU
    Nope. Pro EU parties have continuously gotten majorities. Whereas not even st Nigel could get a seat,


    if you're telling me that the people in 1975 didn't just vote for the EEC but a non-static (evolving) institution, how can you then turn around and say that we in a democracy are short-termist...?
    I'm saying it was blatantly obvious and the public were well aware (despite the Farage Lie Narrative) that the EEC was not static. The electorate then were still short termist too.




    ...um, why
    Long story short- geo politics and globslisation.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    There is no such thing. I think you may be confusing neutral with "agrees with sleepysnooze".

    There's a lot of this going on. Especially concerning 'The People'
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    There's a lot of this going on. Especially concerning 'The People'
    Sadly yes. I'm also not letting myself off the hook! I know I do this I can tell I amn doing it sometimes when I do it


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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Lol. Let me know when you find one.
    oooh and let me guess: the BBC doesn't count. all because I said "paper". okay, little tike - you win!

    I'm not a remainer. To turn a phrase in a Rejoiner- but we have to leave for a substantial time first.
    oh my ****ing word. such a huge world of difference that you had to discern

    Parliamentary democracy brah. Unless you think the UK is and has always. Even a dictatorship suck it up.
    -_-
    so whatever parliament does is legitimate in a two party system then by this logic - forget about the incentives that first past the post produces - forget about all of that - whatever choices the voters cast in elections are their sincere and purest choices possible

    Nope. Pro EU parties have continuously gotten majorities. Whereas not even st Nigel could get a seat,
    ...because those "pro EU" parties were *the* parties.

    it's like you're playing on easy mode here and I'm playing this on hard - make an effort please. this is just a shame because I'm actually giving you so much leeway but you're throwing these tiny little points at me that are only being used because they're difficult to refute in the way you're expecting - i.e. you want me to show you that voters would have voted against labour and the tories if they could have? that would require so many different variables and controls - a different electoral system being tested, for instance, and imagining what kind of parties would even be incentivised to exist in such a condition

    also, of course UKIP didn't get any seats - they aren't a regionally strong political party *anywhere* - their support is national! they got more votes than the SNP yet 1/50~ of their seat share! do you even understand FPTP?

    I'm saying it was blatantly obvious and the public were well aware (despite the Farage Lie Narrative) that the EEC was not static. The electorate then were still short termist too.
    what politician in 1975 even implied that the EEC would get bigger? :| did the UK citizens in 1975 want european federalism in your opinion?

    Long story short- geo politics and globslisation.
    I don't want a short story - I want a competent explanation of your mystifying opinion actually!
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    oooh and let me guess: the BBC doesn't count. all because I said "paper". okay, little tike - you win!


    The BBC has bias.
 
 
 
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