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    Leon Trotsky was in favour of something like the EU coming into being.

    "If the capitalist states of Europe succeeded in merging into an imperialist trust, this would be a step forward as compared with the existing situation, for it would first of all create a unified, all-European material base for the working class movement. The proletariat would in this case have to fight not for the return to “autonomous” national states, but for the conversion of the imperialist state trust into a European Republican Federation. "

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/tro.../06/europe.htm

    It is entirely consistent to be a lefty and support the neoliberal EU.



    KimKallstrom
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    Makes sense. Trotsky despised Europeans and European culture. A mass murdering terrorist filthbag.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It is entirely consistent to be a lefty and support the neoliberal EU.
    but you've described it as neoliberal? in this case, trotsky envisioned a socialist EU, but you've now just called it capitalist, so it's the not same "EU" if we can even call what he had in mind an EU at all - the idea of a continental state for europe isn't exactly a very remote and highly specified idea - there are even bigger land masses with one government over it all, like russia itself, china, the USA, etc so it's by trotsky's time "already an idea" - and I could say "england and scotland will one day unite" before the act of union and still technically be correct even though I haven't suggest what that unified collection of the two countries would appear as and what features it would consist of - because the union of the countries in my head isn't actually what the union turned out to be - the union now is a very specific unit, whereas the idea in my head is simply an under-specified thought bubble of scotland and england being together, as opposed to, for instance, the system of devolution, different education systems, different kinds of voters in a democracy, etc

    ...unless when you said this, you were kidding? hard to tell really
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    What Trotsky is referring to is that it would be much easier to make Europe socialist/communist if capitalism brings together the national states into one continental state.

    It means more people are connected which makes it easier to have socialism/communism worldwide.

    This is just a statement of fact.

    "It is entirely consistent to be a lefty and support the neoliberal EU."

    Your statement is lacking critical analysis and is dripping with anti leftist bias.

    A real leftist would actually approach the neoliberal EU in a different way.

    I would advocate leaving the EU and taking countries with us which would be open to full political, economic and social union. Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain and Ireland would be open to leaving this EU and joining a new socialist EU.

    The recent Brexit is an exercise in futility. The capitalist runs things on the EU level and UK level. For leftists, obtaining power and unifying the people of the world in the worker's revolution should be a priority.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    b in this case, trotsky envisioned a socialist EU,
    No he didn't.

    He envisioned a united states of Europe. Is the United States of America socialist? You have a one big country effectively. That means there are less barriers to communism (nationalism is is a major barrier to class solidarity according to Marxists)
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No he didn't.

    He envisioned a united states of Europe. Is the United States of America socialist? You have a one big country effectively. That means there are less barriers to communism (nationalism is is a major barrier to class solidarity according to Marxists)
    TFW the world is still caught up beteeen stalinists and trotskyists.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    TFW the world is still caught up beteeen stalinists and trotskyists.
    :rofl:
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    What Trotsky is referring to is that it would be much easier to make Europe socialist/communist if capitalism brings together the national states into one continental state.

    It means more people are connected which makes it easier to have socialism/communism worldwide.
    I know. That is what I was saying. I dunno why I am being biased.

    I was showing why a socialist may support the EU.

    Also how is Leon Trotsky not a "real" leftist?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No he didn't.

    He envisioned a united states of Europe. Is the United States of America socialist? You have a one big country effectively. That means there are less barriers to communism (nationalism is is a major barrier to class solidarity according to Marxists)
    what? why are you asking me that? where did trotsky compare it to the USA? when I said "big land mass as a state" that isn't just the USA, but at the same time, it isn't just socialist countries. and what do you mean bigger country = less barriers to communism? surely the opposite? if you have a huge country with a huge diversity of demographics and interests who, the further away each group is, the further away their unity. if you have a small community who understand each other and aren't so geographically segregated, then surely that is an easier path to some kind of radical movement like communism?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    No he didn't.

    He envisioned a united states of Europe. Is the United States of America socialist? You have a one big country effectively. That means there are less barriers to communism (nationalism is is a major barrier to class solidarity according to Marxists)
    "According to Marxists" - you'll have to do better than that. Class solidarity is stronger in more homogenous societies as there are less divisions among the working class.
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    I don't think you guys remotely understand Marxism.


    The guy thought that class was the only real difference among people- and that this was driven by capital. The way to defeat this was through a mass united revoloution of world wide communism under one leader... once we had reached a certain stage of civilisation- Global Capitalism. Then the revoloution needs to occur.

    See Mensheviks ( orthodox marxists) vs Bolsheviks (Marxist Revisionists)

    Communism no matter what you think of it's merits was an internationalist movement just like liberalism today.

    The world is a war of ideas.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I don't think you guys remotely understand Marxism.


    The guy thought that class was the only real difference among people- and that this was driven by capital. The way to defeat this was through a mass united revoloution of world wide communism under one leader... once we had reached a certain stage of civilisation- Global Capitalism. Then the revoloution needs to occur.

    See Mensheviks ( orthodox marxists) vs Bolsheviks (Marxist Revisionists)

    Communism no matter what you think of it's merits was an internationalist movement just like liberalism today.

    The world is a war of ideas.
    No, I understand it fine. What I was arguing is that the idea that capitalism will be defeated by the working classes of all the races, nations and religions in the world uniting is pure fantasy.

    The biggest threat to global capitalism is not internationalist communism (which was often funded by the extremely wealthy) but by protectionist / autarkist nationalisms
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    (Original post by Antioch)
    No, I understand it fine. What I was arguing is that the idea that capitalism will be defeated by the working classes of all the races, nations and religions in the world uniting is pure fantasy.

    The biggest threat to global capitalism is not internationalist communism (which was often funded by the extremely wealthy) but by protectionist / autarkist nationalisms
    The idea of a world caliphate is pure fantasy- that doesn't stop people from trying. And the fact that a project is unrealistic doesn't preclude it from being left wing or right wing.


    Autarkies are not s threat st all to capitalism- it managed perfectly fine under Fascism and us doing fine under Putin and in China.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Autarkies are not s threat st all to capitalism- it managed perfectly fine under Fascism and us doing fine under Putin and in China.
    I said global capitalism not capitalism. Most attempts at autarky are still capitalist. I would say that the best chance of socialism actually working would be in an autarky on a small national or sub-national scale rather than on an international scale.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I know. That is what I was saying. I dunno why I am being biased.

    I was showing why a socialist may support the EU.

    Also how is Leon Trotsky not a "real" leftist?
    A socialist definitely supports the unification of not only European countries but all countries.

    What I meant was that if someone says they are on the left and state that they want to stay in a neo liberal EU, they aren't really left. They are just liberal or centrists
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    French writer Victor Hugo actually predicted the EU way before, in 1849 during the International Peace Congress, where he said he favoured the creation of "a supreme, sovereign senate, which will be to Europe what the parliament is to England" and said "A day will come when all nations on our continent will form a European brotherhood ... A day will come when we shall see ... the United States of America and the United States of Europe face to face, reaching out for each other across the seas."
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Leon Trotsky was in favour of something like the EU coming into being.

    "If the capitalist states of Europe succeeded in merging into an imperialist trust, this would be a step forward as compared with the existing situation, for it would first of all create a unified, all-European material base for the working class movement. The proletariat would in this case have to fight not for the return to “autonomous” national states, but for the conversion of the imperialist state trust into a European Republican Federation. "

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/tro.../06/europe.htm

    It is entirely consistent to be a lefty and support the neoliberal EU.



    KimKallstrom
    Do you honestly think that what Trotsky envisioned has any bearing on the reality of what the EU actually was? Craziness if so.............
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    FACT CHECK - Mostly True
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Do you honestly think that what Trotsky envisioned has any bearing on the reality of what the EU actually was? Craziness if so.............
    No. You are just wrong in saying that someone can not be left wing and support the neoliberal EU as apposed to breaking it apart.

    Anyway, the EU doesn't bear resemblance to what Trotsky was talking about because it is no where near done. Nationalism is still abound in Europe. It hasn't gone far enough.

    Marxists also generally saw liberalism as part of the progress towards communism. They were not against the break down of feudalism being replaced with liberalism. But unlike liberals Marxists wanted to go one step further. It wasn't enough to replace the serf/lord relationship with capitalist and worker, the capitalist/worker relationship had to be transcended into a society where there was no exploiter and exploited (communism). Basically liberalism according didn't bring liberty, equality and fraternity (french revolution) that it said it did. The only way to get the those ideals of the french revolution was keep going until communism was reached.

    So... for a lot of Marxists a neo-liberal EU uniting Europe with the possibility of a United States of Europe in the future is a step nearer to communism.

    Also what Davij said.


    (Original post by Davij038)
    I don't think you guys remotely understand Marxism.


    The guy thought that class was the only real difference among people- and that this was driven by capital. The way to defeat this was through a mass united revoloution of world wide communism under one leader... once we had reached a certain stage of civilisation- Global Capitalism. Then the revoloution needs to occur.

    See Mensheviks ( orthodox marxists) vs Bolsheviks (Marxist Revisionists)

    Communism no matter what you think of it's merits was an internationalist movement just like liberalism today.

    The world is a war of ideas.
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    Unfortunately most far leftists are post Marxist Maoist trash like Galloway and Seumas Milne who think that snug thing is preferable to 'neoliberalism' and thus we have the regressive left ascendancy:
 
 
 
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