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Oxford principal: UK universities will be poorer and less interesting post-Brexit watch

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    Background:
    'Sharp drop in EU student applications to UK universities'
    (http://www.bbc.com/news/education-37786916)

    Result:
    'University tuition fees in 2013-14 totalled £13.7bn. Because foreign students pay fees two or three times higher than the £9,000 maximum set for English students, overseas students contribute more than a third of that total.On top, they spend on accommodation, leisure and sustenance. In every university town in Britain, they are a brilliant economic, social and cultural asset, indispensable to the viability and vitality of the university, while boosting local economies.'

    (https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ellectual-life)

    So your university will be significantly poorer and your education will suffer post-Brexit - leaving the EU will literally make you dumber (let alone less wealthy or even unemployed after graduation, but that's covered in other threads I made). Still think Brexit was a good idea?
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    You're preaching to the converted. These things were all made perfectly clear before the vote. Anybody who cared enough would have voted accordingly.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Background:
    'Sharp drop in EU student applications to UK universities'
    (http://www.bbc.com/news/education-37786916)

    Result:
    'University tuition fees in 2013-14 totalled £13.7bn. Because foreign students pay fees two or three times higher than the £9,000 maximum set for English students, overseas students contribute more than a third of that total.On top, they spend on accommodation, leisure and sustenance. In every university town in Britain, they are a brilliant economic, social and cultural asset, indispensable to the viability and vitality of the university, while boosting local economies.'

    (https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ellectual-life)

    So your university will be significantly poorer and your education will suffer post-Brexit - leaving the EU will literally make you dumber (let alone less wealthy or even unemployed after graduation, but that's covered in other threads I made). Still think Brexit was a good idea?
    Actually that is a rather poor point since the UK taxpayer funds EU students and receives a poorer return from EU students than the equivalent expenditure on home students (because EU students are more likely to leave after graduation than UK students and thus contribute less in tax revenues, quite apart from the difficulties in obtaining student loan repayments). The key thing will be whether Brexit deters international students from coming here.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    the UK taxpayer funds EU students
    Please elaborate. EU students pay double or triple the tuition fees of a UK student - if anything, THEY fund UK universities, students, and save taxpayer money.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Please elaborate. EU students pay double or triple the tuition fees of a UK student - if anything, THEY fund UK universities, students, and save taxpayer money.
    EU students pay the same fees as UK students. Except in Scotland, where they pay no fees but non-Scottish-UK students have to pay fees for Scottish universities.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Please elaborate. EU students pay double or triple the tuition fees of a UK student - if anything, THEY fund UK universities, students, and save taxpayer money.
    No they don't. They pay the same fees and are entitled to the same tuition fee loans as home students.

    The only financial assistance they do not receive from the British taxpayer is the maintenance fee loan.

    Accordingly EU students bring to the UK (not to the university necessarily but to the towns where they are living) the value of their parental maintenance support for the course duration but only that.

    It is non-EU international students who are the cash cow. EU students are a sort of loss leader for the UK as a whole.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Please elaborate. EU students pay double or triple the tuition fees of a UK student - if anything, THEY fund UK universities, students, and save taxpayer money.
    EU students actually only pay £9000 like UK students do. If any reduction in EU intake is made up for by international students from outside of the EU, then there is an argument to be made that funding won't be affected or even increase. However, universities will likely be losing out on research grants and other benefits from EU membership which is sad. I hope our universities continue to stay partnered with European universities for year-long exchange programmes too. I'm a Remainer btw, and see the risks, but I think we have to wait until the final deal is negotiated before saying anything definitively because - quite frankly - no one has any idea what's really going to happen.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    No they don't. They pay the same fees and are entitled to the same tuition fee loans as home students.
    Do you think it will stay that way? Exactly.

    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Accordingly EU students bring to the UK (not to the university necessarily but to the towns where they are living) the value of their parental maintenance support for the course duration but only that.
    Or their savings. Or their loan money from their home country. Let alone the cultural and academic enrichment of their host universities and cities.

    No matter how you look at it: UK universities will suffer greatly if international students stay away.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Do you think it will stay that way? Exactly.



    Or their savings. Or their loan money from their home country.
    It doesn't really what the source is, it is undoubtedly a transfer from another EU state to the UK so I wanted to mention it to be fair to you.


    Let alone the cultural and academic enrichment of their host universities and cities.
    The answer to that is "maybe". It depends who we lose and who, if anyone, they are replaced by.
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    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...fugee-children

    "The UK is now established as a nasty country in the world’s imagination. No amount of flummery from the foreign secretary about “openness” can cover that up. Nor can rather more honest claims by universities that they are open to all, Europe and the wider world, as evidenced by the remain votes in the referendum in university cities.

    It is difficult to imagine why talented scholars and scientists, and students for that matter, should want to make their careers or study in a country unable to admit a handful of refugee children without a tabloid firestorm demanding dental checks. Even before the referendum our inability to evoke a moral response to global distress worthy of our history was deeply shaming. To Orwell, England was like a family with the wrong members in control – and so it increasingly seems since the Brexit vote"
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...fugee-children

    "The UK is now established as a nasty country in the world’s imagination. No amount of flummery from the foreign secretary about “openness” can cover that up. Nor can rather more honest claims by universities that they are open to all, Europe and the wider world, as evidenced by the remain votes in the referendum in university cities.

    It is difficult to imagine why talented scholars and scientists, and students for that matter, should want to make their careers or study in a country unable to admit a handful of refugee children without a tabloid firestorm demanding dental checks. Even before the referendum our inability to evoke a moral response to global distress worthy of our history was deeply shaming. To Orwell, England was like a family with the wrong members in control – and so it increasingly seems since the Brexit vote"
    Can't disagree with that.

    I'm thinking of permanently leaving the UK when I graduate.

    <rant>

    I've always thought of living in UK until I die but the ugliness of the Brexit vote has shown me the truth - that Britain is made up of up xenophobic, intolerant, freeloading, lazy, stupid people resentful of anyone able to rise above the cesspit of their backwardness.

    I don't want turn into one of them when I'm old (*shudders*) - angry, spiteful and doing everything to stop everyone else getting what they can't have coz they're old/lazy - higher, education, travel/live anywhere in Europe, decent jobs, developing a global outlook, UK working with best scientists in Europe in cutting edge research etc.

    </rant>

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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Can't disagree with that.

    I'm thinking of permanently leaving the UK when I graduate.

    <rant>

    I've always thought of living in UK until I die but the ugliness of the Brexit vote has shown me the truth - that Britain is made up of up xenophobic, intolerant, freeloading, lazy, stupid people resentful of anyone able to rise above the cesspit of their backwardness.

    I don't want turn into one of them when I'm old (*shudders*) - angry, spiteful and doing everything to stop everyone else getting what they can't have coz they're old/lazy - higher, education, travel/live anywhere in Europe, decent jobs, developing a global outlook, UK working with best scientists in Europe in cutting edge research etc.

    </rant>

    Good thinking, mate.

    I'm not so sure it's about many Brits wanting others not being able to get what they can't have. Brexit was borne out of a very worrisome level of nationalism that is unrivaled in Europe. Too many of these (yes - xenophobic, stupid) people think Britain is still this great, strong country that unfortunately lost its (unlawful, exploitative, abusive) empire but can still act in isolation without needing to take into account the interests and demands of its neighbors. It's not unlike the mindset of Trump followers.

    Don't just consider Europe. I've lived in the US, Asia, and now the Middle East, and it's a truly enriching experience - and that is despite me being from Germany, which is a great country and flourishing economically and politically these days, where I could very easily find a lucrative job. Yes, you'll meet the typical, ignorant British expat in all these places (believe me, I have and do) but it'll broaden your horizon and probably despise 'Little Britainers' even more.
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Can't disagree with that.

    I'm thinking of permanently leaving the UK when I graduate.

    <rant>

    I've always thought of living in UK until I die but the ugliness of the Brexit vote has shown me the truth - that Britain is made up of up xenophobic, intolerant, freeloading, lazy, stupid people resentful of anyone able to rise above the cesspit of their backwardness.

    I don't want turn into one of them when I'm old (*shudders*) - angry, spiteful and doing everything to stop everyone else getting what they can't have coz they're old/lazy - higher, education, travel/live anywhere in Europe, decent jobs, developing a global outlook, UK working with best scientists in Europe in cutting edge research etc.

    </rant>

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Good thinking, mate.

    I'm not so sure it's about many Brits wanting others not being able to get what they can't have. Brexit was borne out of a very worrisome level of nationalism that is unrivaled in Europe. Too many of these (yes - xenophobic, stupid) people think Britain is still this great, strong country that unfortunately lost its (unlawful, exploitative, abusive) empire but can still act in isolation without needing to take into account the interests and demands of its neighbors. It's not unlike the mindset of Trump followers.

    Don't just consider Europe. I've lived in the US, Asia, and now the Middle East, and it's a truly enriching experience - and that is despite me being from Germany, which is a great country and flourishing economically and politically these days, where I could very easily find a lucrative job. Yes, you'll meet the typical, ignorant British expat in all these places (believe me, I have and do) but it'll broaden your horizon and probably despise 'Little Britainers' even more.
    I am not sure it is so much wanting others not to have; but not valuing what you yourself do not want.

    I also do not think "acting in isolation" is a post-imperial legacy. The Brexiteers apply the same reasoning to domestic policy. It is really the inability to comprehend that anyone other the body they identify with (that is usually the UK government) is an actor rather than a piece of the scenery. I suspect that if you ask most Brexiteers the answer to traffic congestion, it would always be to build more roads. The amount of traffic in their world view is a fixed quantity; therefore if you build more roads, congestion must reduce! Other drivers are not actors who might choose to drive more if there are more or better roads. Every policy only has the result the policymaker wants and exists in a haermetically sealed world.

    If we exclude immigrants we do not want, that has no impact on people we are trying to attract, because those desirable immigrants are not actors making decisions in the light of what the British government does. They are simply part of the firmament.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I suspect that if you ask most Brexiteers the answer to traffic congestion, it would always be to build more roads. The amount of traffic in their world view is a fixed quantity; therefore if you build more roads, congestion must reduce! Other drivers are not actors who might choose to drive more if there are more or better roads. Every policy only has the result the policymaker wants and exists in a haermetically sealed world.
    I'm not sure that is a fair analogy. The quantity of roads isn't determined by a supply-and-demand equilibrium either. It is politically determined. I suspect a lot of Brexiteers believe that there is political pressure to not build more roads for the specific purpose of creating congestion to disincentivise car use. If that is right, you can decrease congestion by building more roads because the current road provision is likely to be below the optimum level for drivers.

    If we exclude immigrants we do not want, that has no impact on people we are trying to attract, because those desirable immigrants are not actors making decisions in the light of what the British government does. They are simply part of the firmament.
    This seems to imply that Goldman Sachs hires worse bankers because it refuses to hire dropouts as bankers: there is a mysterious disincentive effect by excluding no-good people when in reality there is clearly an incentive effect for the best people to compete to work at the "best" bank.

    Again, Brexiteers don't disagree with you here because the see desirable immigrants as part of the firmament any more than they see other car drivers as part of the firmament, but because they find your theory of their reaction to the proposed political changes unconvincing.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Background:
    'Sharp drop in EU student applications to UK universities'
    (http://www.bbc.com/news/education-37786916)

    Result:
    'University tuition fees in 2013-14 totalled £13.7bn. Because foreign students pay fees two or three times higher than the £9,000 maximum set for English students, overseas students contribute more than a third of that total.On top, they spend on accommodation, leisure and sustenance. In every university town in Britain, they are a brilliant economic, social and cultural asset, indispensable to the viability and vitality of the university, while boosting local economies.'

    (https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ellectual-life)

    So your university will be significantly poorer and your education will suffer post-Brexit - leaving the EU will literally make you dumber (let alone less wealthy or even unemployed after graduation, but that's covered in other threads I made). Still think Brexit was a good idea?
    R.I.P. UK

    Although temporarily the pound is cheap so international students will still want to come.

    I'm sure the politicians and the powerplayers will find a way to minimize the effect Brexit has on Britain's economy. While its not going to be as bad as the worst predictions, it will still hurt Britain's economy.

    I don't see London collapsing tomorrow. As long as English is still the lingua franca of the world, Europe with its hodgepodge of languages will find it hard to replace London and the UK.
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    (Original post by Okorange)
    R.I.P. UK

    Although temporarily the pound is cheap so international students will still want to come.

    I'm sure the politicians and the powerplayers will find a way to minimize the effect Brexit has on Britain's economy. While its not going to be as bad as the worst predictions, it will still hurt Britain's economy.

    I don't see London collapsing tomorrow. As long as English is still the lingua franca of the world, Europe with its hodgepodge of languages will find it hard to replace London and the UK.
    Recent announcements seem to have lessened the chances of a hard-right pull up the drawbridge and man the battlements type of Brexit(I hope at least).
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    (Original post by Okorange)
    Although temporarily the pound is cheap so international students will still want to come.

    I'm sure the politicians and the powerplayers will find a way to minimize the effect Brexit has on Britain's economy. While its not going to be as bad as the worst predictions, it will still hurt Britain's economy.
    It surely will. Britain's politicians might have a chance of minimising fallout if the EU was supportive and cooperative - but Brexit voters and your politicians have thoroughly pissed off the EU, and there will be no leniency.


    (Original post by Okorange)
    As long as English is still the lingua franca of the world, Europe with its hodgepodge of languages will find it hard to replace London and the UK.
    That's a bit of a contradiction. As English is the lingua franca, virtually everyone speaks it - why would you need a place where everyone speaks it? It of course won't collapse but it WILL lose wealth and importance once the banks move out.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Good thinking, mate.

    I'm not so sure it's about many Brits wanting others not being able to get what they can't have. Brexit was borne out of a very worrisome level of nationalism that is unrivaled in Europe. Too many of these (yes - xenophobic, stupid) people think Britain is still this great, strong country that unfortunately lost its (unlawful, exploitative, abusive) empire but can still act in isolation without needing to take into account the interests and demands of its neighbors. It's not unlike the mindset of Trump followers.

    Don't just consider Europe. I've lived in the US, Asia, and now the Middle East, and it's a truly enriching experience - and that is despite me being from Germany, which is a great country and flourishing economically and politically these days, where I could very easily find a lucrative job. Yes, you'll meet the typical, ignorant British expat in all these places (believe me, I have and do) but it'll broaden your horizon and probably despise 'Little Britainers' even more.
    I've lived abroad in 2 countries (1 in Europe, 1 outside). I've met lots of people from all over the world. Like the idea of moving to Europe to get the EU passport.

    Germany's a really cool place and the Germans are fantastic.
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    (Original post by Okorange)
    Although temporarily the pound is cheap so international students will still want to come.
    Number of international students coming to UK unis is dropping. Some unis may have to close or raise fees. A mate of mine does the student stats for a UK uni and they've thinking of cutting jobs and student places due to the shortfall in international student numbers (and revenue).
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    1) foreign students are not immigrants. it's two different things.

    2) the articles implies white British people are boring. maybe true
 
 
 
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