Row erupts over BBC transgender programme aimed at children. Watch

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Petulia
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#41
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I just think it's crazy that doctors actually consent to carrying out hormone replacement therapy etc on kids. There should be an age limit on this type of treatment because most kids have no idea that their bodies and voices and hormones are going to be completely different after they go through puberty. They're basically preventing future changes to their body before they're even old enough to know what the changes are.
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TheBirdman
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#42
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
This is pretty worrying. I would take it off TV instantly. Kids are going to get the wrong messages. I disliked football a lot and I cant stand watching it. does not mean I am any less of a Man. nor transgender at all,you can be a man and still like dress up or ponies and princesses. there is no need for people like this on TV it is horrible and if someones personality traits are "A minority" you know something is wrong.

I would also bar people taking hormone drugs that were not needed until 16 or 18 still not decided yet.
It's criminal how children can take hormone drugs so young.
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TheBirdman
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(Original post by Mathemagicien)
I'm sure people thought homosexuality was a mental illness too.

In a generation, transgenderism will be seen as normal, just like homosexuality, bisexuality, and interracial marriage have. Don't be on the wrong side of history.
Transgender people should be treated respectfully and have rights, but it can't be taken as lightly as homosexuality or interracial marriage. Those things don't harm the individual, hormone drugs do. People should be allowed to take them but not if they're under eighteen and haven't had extensive therapy first. It's not wrong but it isn't normal and shouldn't be encouraged.
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The Epicurean
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So I decided to watch the actual programme. The issue of hormones was only dealt with very briefly, in which the main character (Amy) discusses with her friend how difficult it is to get prescribed the hormones, a conversation which lasted about 25 seconds. The rest of the programme (the vast majority of it, some 35 minutes long), deals with a girl starting secondary school. She wants to make a new start as a girl, but is nervous of what will happen as there are people at the school who knew her at primary schools before transitioning. The programme mostly focuses around these issues, bullying and the general issues that effect secondary school kids.

Having watched it, I think it is an issue of making a mountain out of a molehill.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by Colouredsmurf)
I dont agree with teaching kids about sex/gender etc from a young age because if thats how they truly are they will know for themselves if they were transgendere by the time they're in puberty without it being waved in their face constantly.
But the possibility of being transgender isn't "waved in their face constantly" at all. Quite the opposite - being cisgender is "waved in their face constantly", all the time, ubiquitously. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that - the vast majority of people are cisgender. But having the occasional piece of media about being transgender directed at kids lets them know that being transgender is also OK if they ever feel they are.

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anarchism101
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(Original post by Antioch)
Nice job.

What articles were these?

It's crazy how some people can't or refuse to see it. I had a guy tell me recently that the BBC is "completely neutral". I wanted to ask him what on earth made him think that but he was a client so I couldn't.
What exactly do you want from the BBC? Do you want neutrality? Balance? Objectivity? Representativeness?

These features are not remotely synonymous, and in fact often conflict.

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Antioch
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(Original post by anarchism101)
What exactly do you want from the BBC? Do you want neutrality? Balance? Objectivity? Representativeness?

These features are not remotely synonymous, and in fact often conflict.

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I would settle for no TV licence at all. Then at least we aren't forced to pay for its evil.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
You are born one gender. you keep that gender, you may act in different ways but gender is not fluid and there are only 2 Genders.
saying you feel girly or that you are a girl does not make you a girl. nor does Having a operation.
What you are here describing here as "gender" is better known as biological sex (and it would still be a misleasingly simplistic description). There's a reason the two are not synonyms. One refers to what biological primary and secondary sexual characteristics you have, the other to identity and how it is constructed in particular. This is about more than just transgender issues - gender-wise, what characterised a man or woman in a social/cultural sense in Victorian England was very different to say, 15th century Inca Peru.

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TheBirdman
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(Original post by Mathemagicien)
You are talking about physical stuff, not mental stuff.

Like, hormone drugs make them feel better, so is it right to call them "harmful"?
For some people it is right and will ultimately benefit them, but not at such young an age. Also with the surgery itself suicide rates increase afterwards- it is to be avoided when possible and does not always make them feel better in the long run.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by Antioch)
I would settle for no TV licence at all. Then at least we aren't forced to pay for its evil.
Which wasn't my question. Expand it beyond the BBC if you want - what features do you think are important for high-quality media and journalism?

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AngryJellyfish
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(Original post by anarchism101)
But the possibility of being transgender isn't "waved in their face constantly" at all. Quite the opposite - being cisgender is "waved in their face constantly", all the time, ubiquitously. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that - the vast majority of people are cisgender. But having the occasional piece of media about being transgender directed at kids lets them know that being transgender is also OK if they ever feel they are.
:congrats: You've put it far better than I could have.
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Origami Bullets
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(Original post by Petulia)
I just think it's crazy that doctors actually consent to carrying out hormone replacement therapy etc on kids. There should be an age limit on this type of treatment because most kids have no idea that their bodies and voices and hormones are going to be completely different after they go through puberty. They're basically preventing future changes to their body before they're even old enough to know what the changes are.
(Original post by TheBirdman)
It's criminal how children can take hormone drugs so young.
The ONLY drugs that trans kids are ever put on in the UK prior to the age of 16 is puberty pausing drugs.

These drugs stop puberty from starting, and give the child in question more time to work things out and make decisions, without having to go through what are frequently very distressing changes during puberty that are hard or impossible to reverse e.g. growing facial hair or the voice breaking.

These are the same drugs that are used in non-trans children where puberty starts unusually early. If they stop taking the drugs, then puberty will commence as normal from that point onwards. If, once they are *at least* 16 - but they'd be very lucky to get to that stage that young - they can start taking cross-sex hormones if they wish, to induce puberty of the gender they identify with. If they decide that they do, in fact, identify as their birth sex then they stop taking the puberty pausing drugs and go through puberty from that point onwards.

Introducing children to people who are different from themselves is a fundamental part of growing up and becoming a functioning, non-bigoted member of society. Telling a child that Hindus exist does not make them want to convert to Hinduism. Telling a child that gay people exist does not turn a child gay. Telling a child that trans people exist does not make children want to transition.

I do wonder how many people on this thread have actually watched the programme, rather than just relying on the Mail on Sunday's screeching headline today.
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Antioch
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#53
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(Original post by anarchism101)
Which wasn't my question. Expand it beyond the BBC if you want - what features do you think are important for high-quality media and journalism?

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It's relevant to the discussion. Most mainstream media outlets tell falsehoods and omit the truth frequently. We aren't forced to pay for them though.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by AngryJellyfish)
:congrats: You've put it far better than I could have.
Thanks.

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username521617
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(Original post by Wōden)
If children can't consent to sexual activity then they certainly can't consent to a physical sex change. It's that simple. It is astonishing to me that this degeneracy is being allowed to occur.
Exactly. It's child abuse, pure and simple.

Kids that age don't even know what vocations they want when they grow up, let alone what gender they 'want to be.'

I often fear that this sort of behaviour is more of a result of the parents' beliefs rather than the child's. What's to stop deluded parents from brainwashing their children into thinking they were born in the wrong bodies and putting them through such life-altering physical and social changes? It's truly horrifying.
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Obiejess
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(Original post by Origami Bullets)
The ONLY drugs that trans kids are ever put on in the UK prior to the age of 16 is puberty pausing drugs.

These drugs stop puberty from starting, and give the child in question more time to work things out and make decisions, without having to go through what are frequently very distressing changes during puberty that are hard or impossible to reverse e.g. growing facial hair or the voice breaking.

These are the same drugs that are used in non-trans children where puberty starts unusually early. If they stop taking the drugs, then puberty will commence as normal from that point onwards. If, once they are *at least* 16 - but they'd be very lucky to get to that stage that young - they can start taking cross-sex hormones if they wish, to induce puberty of the gender they identify with. If they decide that they do, in fact, identify as their birth sex then they stop taking the puberty pausing drugs and go through puberty from that point onwards.

Introducing children to people who are different from themselves is a fundamental part of growing up and becoming a functioning, non-bigoted member of society. Telling a child that Hindus exist does not make them want to convert to Hinduism. Telling a child that gay people exist does not turn a child gay. Telling a child that trans people exist does not make children want to transition.

I do wonder how many people on this thread have actually watched the programme, rather than just relying on the Mail on Sunday's screeching headline today.
Agree with this generally, but the main issue with the programme for me is the idea portrayed that if you like typically boy/girl things and are a girl/boy that makes you transgender. You can be a boy who loves make-up and barbie dolls but still identifies as a boy. I reckon this sort of messaging would be very damaging to children. I say this as a person who at aged 7 asked my parents for a sex change because I wanted to be a boy, because all my friends were boys, I preferred boys clothes and boys toys. Now I'm older I am very much happy being a woman.

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_Fergo
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Can't believe 6yr olds are being injected such drastic drugs...

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mojojojo101
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(Original post by Wōden)
If children can't consent to sexual activity then they certainly can't consent to a physical sex change. It's that simple. It is astonishing to me that this degeneracy is being allowed to occur.
You do realise that using words like degeneracy belies your true intentions right, that you dont actually give a toss about the mental well being of the children involved, you just dont like the idea of trans people.
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Abstract_Prism
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
Gender Identity a pretty silly term. you can be a man who likes "girly" things or a woman that is really into Death metal Biking and fist fighting. Does not mean you are another gender.

You are born one gender. you keep that gender, you may act in different ways but gender is not fluid and there are only 2 Genders.
saying you feel girly or that you are a girl does not make you a girl. nor does Having a operation.

Encouraging this behavior is seriously concerning
You're born with one sex and that cannot change. Your gender, as I'm sure you know, is quite distinct from your sex. It is not biological, unlike sex.

You are right in that simply liking activities traditionally associated with a specific gender does not make you that gender, but that's not what being transgender is about. A gender is how someone identifies themselves. It relies on distinct genders, male and female - as opposed to gender being a spectrum. That doesn't mean that a transgender person necessarily acts in a manner that is stereotypical of that gender though. Someone could identify as male and yet still enjoy doing 'female' activities, like you said. A gender is a personal association, the 'core' of what someone is. Their activities and interests are merely extensions of that core.

At least that's how I understand it. But the point is that sex =/= gender. Otherwise there'd be no need for two terms for the same thing.
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yudothis
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Great idea.

You guys are just closet transgender phobes. Maybe if you had been taught to see it as normal from a young age you wouldn't be so scared.
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