Brexiters don't like democracy or the law Watch

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#21
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#21
(Original post by InnerTemple)
But then it turns out that the Government doesn't have the power to make the changes needed for the UK to leave the EU.

Instead, Parliament must agree to it - since Parliament is supreme. And despite banging on about Parliamentary supremacy, it seems that many Brexiters are suddenly not so keen on it.

They are also not as keen on British law, British judges or the constitution anymore.

This leads me to believe that many Brexiters are either ignorant with regard to the UK political system or didn't actually care about the above at any point.
I hope you realise that going against a referendum is constitutional acceptable but says a huge lot about the democracy of our country, even Gaddafi made sure referendums were binding. Parliamentary sovereignty is granted by the will of the mass, after all that is their job, to represent the people.

You've clearly made your arguments in favour of parliament over turning the referendum result had you argued that parliament should trigger article 50 but be heavily involved in the negotiating process you may have saved yourself from looking like a complete fool. Parliament constented to accept the result in the Referendum Bill, the argument of government transparency is the only one that is worth a debate.
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benscreech
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#22
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#22
Brexiteers who have been spouting off about the EU being undemocratic need to shut up if they think that a government elected with less that 40% of the vote led by a Prime Minister that no-one voted for should be able to decide the country's future relationship with the EU without asking Parliament, which is elected and 'supreme' according to the British constitution.
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Joep95
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#23
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#23
(Original post by benscreech)
Brexiteers who have been spouting off about the EU being undemocratic need to shut up if they think that a government elected with less that 40% of the vote led by a Prime Minister that no-one voted for should be able to decide the country's future relationship with the EU without asking Parliament, which is elected and 'supreme' according to the British constitution.
Direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy but it is less efficient that is why it is only used on big constitutional matters like brexit or voting reforms.

Can you name 1 pm in history who has been elected for the role?
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MagicNMedicine
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#24
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#24
I think a lot of people have missed the real point on this legal case, especially with the tabloids painting it as judges trying to subvert the will of the people.

The judges have interpreted the law and found a judgement against the government - which is a significant thing because it shows that the government is not above the law. The judges did not say that Brexit is illegal, it's for Parliament to decide that. Parliament knows that it is accountable to the public and that will be sufficient constraint on them: if the public genuinely would be outraged if Parliament votes against Brexit then all that needs to happen at the next election is the electorate elect pro-Brexit MPs and Parliament will vote it through. That is how power derives from the people and is exercised through Parliament.

The judges have not interfered with this principle, they have made sure the government follows the law and doesn't get away with subverting Parliamentary democracy.

A lot of the Brexiters that are complaining about this judgement, may be glad of it in the long run. Theresa May is ruthlessly determined and authoritarian in approach and they will like this in terms of being willing to drive Brexit through past opposition (which she will) and they will like it in terms of being willing to go beyond what other leaders would do in order to keep Britain secure and to clamp down on crime. What they will not like is some of her moral authoritarianism that they will regard as an attack on freedoms, such as increasing powers of the authorities to monitor your internet use and mobile communications, and make you need to prove your age with your personal details in order to access porn (so your porn use is tracked). As we go down this road people will start to hate Theresa May and see her as an anti-freedom tyrant. At which time we might be glad of Parliament as a moderating influence.
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yudothis
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#25
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#25
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
I think a lot of people have missed the real point on this legal case, especially with the tabloids painting it as judges trying to subvert the will of the people.

The judges have interpreted the law and found a judgement against the government - which is a significant thing because it shows that the government is not above the law. The judges did not say that Brexit is illegal, it's for Parliament to decide that. Parliament knows that it is accountable to the public and that will be sufficient constraint on them: if the public genuinely would be outraged if Parliament votes against Brexit then all that needs to happen at the next election is the electorate elect pro-Brexit MPs and Parliament will vote it through. That is how power derives from the people and is exercised through Parliament.

The judges have not interfered with this principle, they have made sure the government follows the law and doesn't get away with subverting Parliamentary democracy.

A lot of the Brexiters that are complaining about this judgement, may be glad of it in the long run. Theresa May is ruthlessly determined and authoritarian in approach and they will like this in terms of being willing to drive Brexit through past opposition (which she will) and they will like it in terms of being willing to go beyond what other leaders would do in order to keep Britain secure and to clamp down on crime. What they will not like is some of her moral authoritarianism that they will regard as an attack on freedoms, such as increasing powers of the authorities to monitor your internet use and mobile communications, and make you need to prove your age with your personal details in order to access porn (so your porn use is tracked). As we go down this road people will start to hate Theresa May and see her as an anti-freedom tyrant. At which time we might be glad of Parliament as a moderating influence.
Yes I read the best thing for TM to do is call new elections.

But suppose she doesn't in time, and Parliament votes against Brexit say within half a year.

Are you saying now that the referendum is done, it is a Pandora's box? At any point in time if some MPs think it is the right time, they can call a Brexit vote in Parliament and if they get the majority it happens. Or if they vote against it once they won't vote on it anymore? Or will every new Parliament then vote on it?
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MagicNMedicine
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#26
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#26
(Original post by yudothis)
Yes I read the best thing for TM to do is call new elections.

But suppose she doesn't in time, and Parliament votes against Brexit say within half a year.

Are you saying now that the referendum is done, it is a Pandora's box? At any point in time if some MPs think it is the right time, they can call a Brexit vote in Parliament and if they get the majority it happens. Or if they vote against it once they won't vote on it anymore? Or will every new Parliament then vote on it?
If Parliament votes against Brexit then really it is down to the public mood.

There are certainly enough committed pro-Brexit politicians around that could get nominated by their constituency associations and stand for Parliament and if they got in they could easily put forward a motion to vote on Brexit without a further referendum and enact it.

One thing I wonder though is whether there really would be "riots in the streets" if Parliament voted against Brexit. It was a narrow race, and the fact that Brexiters are so against a second referendum suggests they are concerned there wouldn't be a clear mandate second time around. Even where MPs support Remain in Leave voting constituencies, a lot of the Leave constituencies were only narrowly Leave so it is much of a muchness, an MP voting against Brexit will anger those voters but will also rally defeated Remainers.

Look at the Scotland situation - in 2014 there was a more decisive mandate against leaving the UK: 55-45, and really, the SNP should have been wiped out electorally in 2015 because they are the party that refused to accept the result of the largest ever democratic exercise in Scotland and wanted to still campaign for reversing the result and getting a second referendum. Instead the SNP rallied all the disillusioned Yes voters around a cause.
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Doones
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Luke7456)
Making mistakes in grammar when your trying to mock others for this is not impressive.
*you're
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Maker
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#28
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#28
The Brexit referedum got a lot of people out voting for the first time. This means they don't usually vote in elections so in an election, a lot of Leavers won't be voting and the Remainers will be the majority.

I think the reason why Leavers want out of the EU asap is they know the monentum to leave is quickly evaporating which is the reason why they are getting so wound up about any delays.

Saying that, I think Britain should leave the EU since thats democracy and its more important than staying in or leaving the EU.
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Maker
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#29
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#29
(Original post by jneill)
*you're
If you want, I can give you a list of sites I visit and you can follow me around and help correct any mistakes in my posts.
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Tempest II
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#30
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#30
(Original post by yudothis)
Same way I wouldn't expect moronic Brexiters to have C's in GCSE maths and English
B in Maths, C in both English Lit & Language here. Sorry to disappoint.

You'll also be pleased to know that I know plenty of pilots & air traffic controllers who voted for Brexit.

Of course, there's a few fair brain-dead individuals out there but on both sides. We Leavers don't pretend to have a monopoly in that area .
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Maker
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Tempest II)
B in Maths, C in both English Lit & Language here. Sorry to disappoint.

You'll also be pleased to know that I know plenty of pilots & air traffic controllers who voted for Brexit.

Of course, there's a few fair brain-dead individuals out there but on both sides. We Leavers don't pretend to have a monopoly in that area .
That the same grades I got, what are the chances? The grades are not actually comparable since there were no A" grades when I did mine.
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Rainingpopcorn5
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Quamquam123)
Brexiters love democracy because the British people democratically vote to leave the European Union
Amen.
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Rainingpopcorn5
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Tempest II)
B in Maths, C in both English Lit & Language here. Sorry to disappoint.

You'll also be pleased to know that I know plenty of pilots & air traffic controllers who voted for Brexit.

Of course, there's a few fair brain-dead individuals out there but on both sides. We Leavers don't pretend to have a monopoly in that area .
:beer:
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Doones
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Maker)
If you want, I can give you a list of sites I visit and you can follow me around and help correct any mistakes in my posts.
?

I wasn't correcting you.

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jamesthehustler
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#35
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#35
they'll be a war if it doesn't happen and with my metals, I'll be right up the hierarchy
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Rainingpopcorn5
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#36
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I think the Remainers need to get the idea that us Brexiters are dumb and the other way round, out of their close-minded little heads. Calm your little pompous self down.

I know some Remainers that don't know the difference between nouns and adverbs and I know some Brexiters that are exactly the same. But instead of being tolerant to other people's choices, y'all are being spoilt brats because it wasn't what you wanted. Just accept it now and move forward.

Yes there are some positives to remaining for example the EU animal protection laws and there are negatives to brexiting, but in the long term, it would probably be better.

I mean, who knows what the future holds and who knows what would have happened if we stayed but have a positive outlook and stop being a Debbie Downer.

Didn't mean to offend any Debbie's out there.
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Maker
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#37
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#37
(Original post by jneill)
?

I wasn't correcting you.

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I fought its was a servoce you provided to everyobe, why am i beeing discriminnated agianst?
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Doones
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Maker)
I fought its was a servoce you provided to everyobe, why am i beeing discriminnated agianst?
I c wot youv dun their.
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Maker
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#39
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#39
(Original post by jneill)
I c wot youv dun their.
LUL
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yudothis
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Tempest II)
B in Maths, C in both English Lit & Language here. Sorry to disappoint.

You'll also be pleased to know that I know plenty of pilots & air traffic controllers who voted for Brexit.

Of course, there's a few fair brain-dead individuals out there but on both sides. We Leavers don't pretend to have a monopoly in that area .
But like Trump voters the backbone of the movement is the lower class that have been told all their problems is the establishment that if you make Britain Great Britain again suddenly everything will be better, when the absolute vast majority of experts in the vast majority of fields say otherwise, because it's what people want to hear. That's the difference between the average Brexiter and Remainer.
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