why did britain want to join the eu? Watch

p29
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???
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sleepysnooze
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we thought it would make us wealthier
but this was at a time when tariffs internationally and continentally were much higher than they are now after the 90s and the development of the WTO - now there's basically no point because the political costs outweigh what little economic benefit continentally there is. besides, now that the EU makes us tariff non-EU countries, it actually costs us trade in an international context.
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TheBirdhaslanded
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(Original post by p29)
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Because Ted Heath put us in ,in 1972 and held no election. Wilson held one in 1975 but thatcher won that vote for remain. It was marketed as a single market with tariff free trading not a dictatorship with infinite immigration
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Davij038
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(Original post by TheBirdhaslanded)
Because Ted Heath put us in ,in 1972 and held no election. Wilson held one in 1975 but thatcher won that vote for remain. It was marketed as a single market with tariff free trading not a dictatorship with infinite immigration
How many dictatorships can you leave whenever you want?
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recall113
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According to Yes Minister to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
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TheBirdhaslanded
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(Original post by Davij038)
How many dictatorships can you leave whenever you want?
heard of the term democratic dictatorship?
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GiantKiwi
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(Original post by TheBirdhaslanded)
heard of the term democratic dictatorship?
That is an oxymoron, the two are always mutually exclusive, thinking otherwise is pure stupidity.
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Davij038
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(Original post by TheBirdhaslanded)
heard of the term democratic dictatorship?
No. it's self contradictory, a dictatorship can of course have a democtatic mandate (eg Mussolini ) but the idea you can have a dictatorship you can willingly leave at any time is ridiculous and exists only in the minds of key board warriors who probably think feminism is fascism and support Putin (who actually kills opposition leaders among other things)
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hodobikar
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it was all about economics they wanted some of the wealth the other countries were sharing
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Jammy Duel
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Post war economic policy in this country was awful and it was a world of high tariffs. Germany on the other hand had sounder policies and this was reflected somewhat across the rest of the EEC, which was also tariff free/low tariff trade. Seems like an obvious decision, especially when we were promised the things we were hesitant about wouldn't happen (they did).

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meenu89
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Back in 1973 it was the EEC, and it all about trading and not the political animal it is now.
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MagicNMedicine
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This is an interesting question, because the standard line you often hear is: it was about free trade, and the EEC that we voted to remain in in 1975 was vastly different from the one it subsequently became, with multiple treaties ratified afterwards without a referendum that transferred further powers from national Parliaments to the EU. The key dividing point for most Eurosceptics was the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 which whilst establishing the single market (which we wanted) also established the seeds of political union by establishing the route to the single currency (albeit giving us an opt out). From that point on it was obvious that the general direction desired by the European elites was political integration and the UK would always be a bit of an outsider as it was never going to want that.

However....I thoroughly recommend watching at least some of the iconic 1975 referendum TV debate between the Home Secretary Roy Jenkins (Remain) and the Industry Secretary Tony Benn (Leave). What is noticeable is how similar many of the arguments were even back then, to those that played out in this referendum, apart from immigration was not a big issue then. But Tony Benn brings up all the issues about sovereignty and democracy and the transfer of powers from a British Parliament - even for the EEC as it was back then. Maybe Benn feared what was later to happen - that once you start down that path more and more powers will be transferred - or maybe it was that even in 1975 we were making serious democratic compromises to be in the EEC.

Another thing to note from that TV debate is how the debate was higher quality than what we saw in 2016, these are both men with fierce intellects, arguing vigorously but without insults and with dignity and respect for each other (traditional British values, surely). Tony Benn's arguments for Leave are not the divisive ones that were used in 2016, trying to stir people up against groups, but he makes a passionate argument for democracy. Anyway even if you don't watch the whole thing I recommend watching some part of this debate as it is enlightening.

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nulli tertius
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(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
This is an interesting question, because the standard line you often hear is: it was about free trade, and the EEC that we voted to remain in in 1975 was vastly different from the one it subsequently became, with multiple treaties ratified afterwards without a referendum that transferred further powers from national Parliaments to the EU. The key dividing point for most Eurosceptics was the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 which whilst establishing the single market (which we wanted) also established the seeds of political union by establishing the route to the single currency (albeit giving us an opt out). From that point on it was obvious that the general direction desired by the European elites was political integration and the UK would always be a bit of an outsider as it was never going to want that.
The issue that has vanished between 1973/5 and 2016 is food security.

What is very noticeable is that of the Leave campaigners in 2016 who were of age in 1975, they were No voters in 1975. Essentially Maastricht didn't make a difference. This is a victory by those who didn't accept the will of the people in 1975 and that is very significant for those who now say that the Leave vote should close down the debate.
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Aaron Bernbaum
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Good question
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The issue that has vanished between 1973/5 and 2016 is food security.

What is very noticeable is that of the Leave campaigners in 2016 who were of age in 1975, they were No voters in 1975. Essentially Maastricht didn't make a difference. This is a victory by those who didn't accept the will of the people in 1975 and that is very significant for those who now say that the Leave vote should close down the debate.
I'm not surprised that most of the Leavers in 1975 are still leavers in 2016 (apart from Jeremy Corbyn).

The big difference Maastricht made was that that Treaty (not just its signature, but the whole debate about the issues it introduced, which went back 5 or 6 years) brought Euroscepticism in to mainstream Conservative politics.

In the 1970s and early 1980s the main opposition to the EEC in the UK was from the traditional left, and from right wing nationalist groups. Thatcher and the emerging dominant 'dry' Conservatism was pro-EEC because it liked the concept of the Single Market and in the context of the Cold War it liked the ideological opportunity of consolidating free-market liberal capitalism this side of the Berlin Wall and preventing some states that were coming out of autocracy from slipping towards the Soviet Union.

What changed in the 1980s for Thatcher and co was Jacques Delors and the road to Maastricht. At the same time Thatcher was pushing for the single market she was starting to realise that Delors and the Euro-elites were a) socialist in nature and their view of common regulation was more 'big state' regulation, and b) driving very hard for political union.

Now in the mid 1990s this Euro debate in the Conservative party went over the heads of the public as it wasn't a priority, and it just made the Tories look divided. In fact for about 10 years that was the situation until immigration started to become an issue and Farage and UKIP were able to tag the EU to border control and engage the populist mood against it.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
I'm not surprised that most of the Leavers in 1975 are still leavers in 2016 (apart from Jeremy Corbyn).
You haven't quite got the point. The Leave campaigners (of sufficient age) of 2016 were No voters of 1975. Although the Leave campaigners say people were misled, you cannot find active Leave campaigners who say "I voted Yes in 1975, but the EU today is not what I voted for"
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MagicNMedicine
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
You haven't quite got the point. The Leave campaigners (of sufficient age) of 2016 were No voters of 1975. Although the Leave campaigners say people were misled, you cannot find active Leave campaigners who say "I voted Yes in 1975, but the EU today is not what I voted for"
That sounds reasonable
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Classical Liberal
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(Original post by iainvg)
That is an oxymoron, the two are always mutually exclusive, thinking otherwise is pure stupidity.
Some people might say Russia is a democratic dictatorship.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Classical Liberal)
Some people might say Russia is a democratic dictatorship.
Given the widespread suspicion of vote rigging in 2012 and the opposition leader being shot in 2014 i'd not even go that far.
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jon2016
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West Germany was like a mini China growing at a very fast rate.

British Economy was in decline with little chance of growth in the commonwealth markets, it was felt the free trade with europe would be advantageous
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