Does faith imply knowledge?

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Sillylilly999
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My religious studies group and I have been arguing this and I thought I would see what other people thinks. So, do you think that to have faith you must first have knowledge or not?
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Good bloke
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Faith implies a lack of willingness to consider things with an open mind, or an inability to consider things analytically.
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RogerOxon
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Faith is believing things without [sufficient] evidence. In the religious sense, it's believing extraordinary things without any credible evidence. IMO, religion has only survived because of indoctrination and a desire to make-up explanations for things that aren't understood (by the individual in question - science is often ignored).

The faithful often (in my experience) think that they 'know' things without evidence.
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NJA
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The God of the bible never asked anyone to trust him without first showing them his good intentions and ability to do what no man can do.

Atheism is blind faith in the very limited and proven unreliability of natural man's strength and "knowledge" that is limited to the natural realm.
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Cobalt_
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(Original post by NJA)
The God of the bible never asked anyone to trust him without first showing them his good intentions and ability to do what no man can do.

Atheism is blind faith in the very limited and proven unreliability of natural man's strength and "knowledge" that is limited to the natural realm.
"Atheism is blind faith"

Thats enough TSR for today.
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yudothis
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(Original post by NJA)
The God of the bible never asked anyone to trust him without first showing them his good intentions and ability to do what no man can do.

Atheism is blind faith in the very limited and proven unreliability of natural man's strength and "knowledge" that is limited to the natural realm.
"You're a wizard Harry". Harry didn't believe either until he was shown. If in 2'000 years someone finds a Harry Potter book, you reckon they will think Harry was real if someone claims he was?

Atheists do not have faith in the "strength of the natural man". Wherever did you even come up with that?

Our knowledge is indeed limited. We aren't as arrogant as theists to think "God" is an acceptable answer to everything we cannot explain.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
The God of the bible never asked anyone to trust him without first showing them his good intentions
What were his good intentions, and how were they demonstrated, when he commanded Jacob to sacrifice his son, Isaac?
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Whitewell
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Faith is typically synonymous with trust:

belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Christianity stresses that there are reasons to believe Christianity to be true, but not knowledge. For example, i know the Catholic church has it as an official statement that we can have knowledge that God exists and various other anthropomorphic truths, which Aquinas called the 'preambles of faith'. Other denominations have argued for various reasons and evidence to support Christianity in particular, but at best this doesnt get you all the way to _knowledge_ that the religion is true, even if it gets you close. A common summary would be; faith (in a religion) is trust based on reason.

However, it depends on your theory of knowledge. Generally, it is simply justified true belief. If the arguments are correct, they may count as justified true belief. It brings up issues like how confident we must be in a proposition before we can grant it as knowledge.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kn.../#KnoJusTruBel

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alexschmalex
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Way I see it, faith is an acknowledgement of our own lack of knowledge and placing trust in God's knowledge. If I already had the answers to everything, what would be the point in me being a Christian?
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NJA
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(Original post by Good bloke)
What were his good intentions, and how were they demonstrated, when he commanded Jacob to sacrifice his son, Isaac?
Actually Abraham was Isaac's dad.
God knows the hearts and he knew he would send an angel and provide a goat instead of Isaac. This points to the provision of his own Son to take the punishment for our sin so that we can approach God confident that he wants us back and we don't have to try our best, just believe in his provision.

God intentions were to show man that a man can be reasonable and believe if he wants to.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
Hebrews 11:17-19

If Abraham were alive today he would certainly obey the gospel by getting baptised and calling on God for the Spirit of His Son
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
Actually Abraham was Isaac's dad.
God knows the hearts and he knew he would send an angel and provide a goat instead of Isaac. This points to the provision of his own Son to take the punishment for our sin so that we can approach God confident that he wants us back and we don't have to try our best, just believe in his provision.

God intentions were to show man that a man can be reasonable and believe if he wants to.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
Hebrews 11:17-19

If Abraham were alive today he would certainly obey the gospel by getting baptised and calling on God for the Spirit of His Son
You are avoiding the questions. I asked how Abraham was shown the good intention, as you claimed your god always does. I can see no evidence that Abraham had any signals about intentions other than the instruction to murder his son as a sacrifice.

Merely telling me what you think his intentions were, derived after the event, just doesn't cut it and neither does telling us what Abraham didn't know at the time.
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NJA
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(Original post by Good bloke)
... I can see no evidence that Abraham had any signals about intentions other than the instruction to murder his son as a sacrifice.....
Where are you looking?
You mention the offering of Isaac (that's Genesis 22), why not read the preceeding 11 chapters on God's dealings with Abram (later renamed Abraham)?

He appears in Genesis 11 as a descendant of Noah, so he would have heard all that story, then in chapter 12 we read:

"the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD" (v7)

... and so it goes on.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
Where are you looking?
You mention the offering of Isaac (that's Genesis 22), why not read the preceeding 11 chapters on God's dealings with Abram (later renamed Abraham)?

He appears in Genesis 11 as a descendant of Noah, so he would have heard all that story, then in chapter 12 we read:

"the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD" (v7)

... and so it goes on.
Those are not a god showing (as you claimed) good intentions; those are claims of good intentions.
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The_Lonely_Goatherd
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Imho, the most faithful (or should I say faith-full?) religious adherents are the ones without supernatural knowledge of their deity/creator existing. They are the ones who have not had religious experiences and have not a shred of evidence (human logic or supernatural knowledge/logic) that their god(s) exist but still somehow manage to believe wholeheartedly anyway. As a perennial Doubting Thomas, kudos to those who can believe without seeing. It's not personally something I could (easily) do, so I have a weird kinda admiration for them :jebus:

Not entirely sure if this is answering your question OP, but hope it helps somewhat
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Zargabaath
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In my experience, it implies the opposite
Faith is belief without knowledge
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NJA
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Those are not a god showing (as you claimed) good intentions; those are claims of good intentions.
In chapter 13 he protected him, in chapter 15 he promised an heir even though Sarai was past child-bearing age .. provided in chapter 17 .... you can read on yourself.
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z33
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(Original post by yudothis)
"You're a wizard Harry". Harry didn't believe either until he was shown. If in 2'000 years someone finds a Harry Potter book, you reckon they will think Harry was real if someone claims he was?

Atheists do not have faith in the "strength of the natural man". Wherever did you even come up with that?

Our knowledge is indeed limited. We aren't as arrogant as theists to think "God" is an acceptable answer to everything we cannot explain.
sidenote - I immediately thought of


and now im dying :rofl:
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
In chapter 13 he protected him, in chapter 15 he promised an heir even though Sarai was past child-bearing age .. provided in chapter 17 .... you can read on yourself.
Yes. These are things he did previously. They demonstrate past good actions. They do not demonstrate good intentions for the future. We are dealing with a deity that murdered the entire populations of cities, remember, which shows that those involved with him can come to a sticky end (as Abraham expected Isaac to, of course).

You claimed that he always demonstrated good intentions but so far you have only shown claims to good intentions and Abraham blindly following his instructions to murder.
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NJA
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(Original post by Good bloke)
...We are dealing with a deity that murdered the entire populations of cities, remember,
What event(s) are you referring to?

(Original post by Good bloke)
You claimed that he always demonstrated good intentions but so far you have only shown claims to good intentions and Abraham blindly following his instructions to murder.
You seem to have defective eyesight.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by NJA)
What event(s) are you referring to?

You seem to have defective eyesight.
The cities of the plain were wiped out, as of course was all of humanity apart from Noah's family.

As my eyesight is so bad, perhaps you could point me to one demonstration of future good intentions that you have provided.
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