Cato the Elder
Badges: 3
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#1
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#1
"'Freedom' ye all roar most eagerly: but I have unlearned the belief in 'great events,' when there is much roaring and smoke about them.
And believe me, friend Hullabaloo! The greatest events—are not our noisiest, but our stillest hours.
Not around the inventors of new noise, but around the inventors of new values, doth the world revolve; inaudibly it revolveth."-Friedrich Nietzsche, Chapter 40: "Great Events", "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

Very relevant to what's going on in the Arab Spring right now. The world was full of hopes that the popular tumult shaking that region would lead to an overflowing of freedom and democracy. Several years on and the region is in flames.

Why? Because the fundamental cultural values laid down over a millennium and a half ago remain unchanged. Real change in the Middle East will come not from rowdy revolutionaries, but the inventors of new cultural values.
0
reply
l'etranger
Badges: 2
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#2
Report 5 years ago
#2
The problem is that you have defined Western ideals as the only ideal, when the Arab Spring occurred all Western commentators had a word on their lips ''Freedom''. The Middle East had neo-Christian cultural values imposed on it by the outside and Arab Spring was a rejection of this in favour of Islamic values.
0
reply
Cato the Elder
Badges: 3
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#3
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#3
(Original post by l'etranger)
The problem is that you have defined Western ideals as the only ideal, when the Arab Spring occurred all Western commentators had a word on their lips ''Freedom''. The Middle East had neo-Christian cultural values imposed on it by the outside and Arab Spring was a rejection of this in favour of Islamic values.
I never defined Western ideals as the only ideal. However, everyone was full of hope that the Arab Spring would lead to fundamental change in the Middle East. Instead it has remained fundamentally the same.

My point is that fundamental change in the Middle East will not come from noisy revolutions but the creators of new values. Will the Middle East get a re-valuator of values like Mohammed? It seems not.
0
reply
l'etranger
Badges: 2
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#4
Report 5 years ago
#4
(Original post by Cato the Elder)
I never defined Western ideals as the only ideal. However, everyone was full of hope that the Arab Spring would lead to fundamental change in the Middle East. Instead it has remained fundamentally the same.
No, it has changed, they rejected Western influence in favour of Islam. It has fundamentally changed, just not in the direction people in the West though. In the West we have this idea of ''the man'' and he's racist, homophobic, socially conservative and generally not very cool and when you have a revolution you go from less liberal to more liberal, you stick it to the man, well guess what, the world isn't the West and in other parts of the world they love authoritarian leaders and they see Western puppet leaders as liberal degenerates so when they rebel, they are replacing the old Western values with a more austere value of morals and decency.


I'm not saying I agree, but that actually is how it is.

(Original post by Cato the Elder)
My point is that fundamental change in the Middle East will not come from noisy revolutions but the creators of new values. Will the Middle East get a re-valuator of values like Mohammed? It seems not.
Actually you are wrong, Islam has had revolutions, but they were not Whig/Jacobin revolutions like the American war of independence or the French revolution. During the medieval period the Islamic world was fairly liberal, up until the Mongols sacked Baghdad 1258, they absolutely brutalised the Muslims, the Caliph's daughter was raped by the Mongol Khan. Islam had this introspective period where they saw the Mongol hordes as curse from Allah and rejected things such as science or philosophy as outside influences from the Greeks in the following years they crushed the Mongols and pushed their borders back reestablishing the Caliphate. I find it so stupid that White people think that the rest of the world will act like them.


(BTW I am White and non-Muslim in case you are wondering.)
0
reply
Cato the Elder
Badges: 3
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#5
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#5
(Original post by l'etranger)
No, it has changed, they rejected Western influence in favour of Islam. It has fundamentally changed, just not in the direction people in the West though. In the West we have this idea of ''the man'' and he's racist, homophobic, socially conservative and generally not very cool and when you have a revolution you go from less liberal to more liberal, you stick it to the man, well guess what, the world isn't the West and in other parts of the world they love authoritarian leaders and they see Western puppet leaders as liberal degenerates so when they rebel, they are replacing the old Western values with a more austere value of morals and decency.


I'm not saying I agree, but that actually is how it is.
You're not getting my point. There were pro-Westerners among the ranks of the revolutionaries, but they didn't make much headway because after overthrowing their dictators the Islamists, who were better-organised, hijacked it. The cultural values of the Middle East, influenced by Islam, made this possible. My point is that revolutions don't effect truly radical change, only if you change the fundamental cultural values do you get real change.



(Original post by l'etranger)
Actually you are wrong, Islam has had revolutions, but they were not Whig/Jacobin revolutions like the American war of independence or the French revolution. During the medieval period the Islamic world was fairly liberal, up until the Mongols sacked Baghdad 1258, they absolutely brutalised the Muslims, the Caliph's daughter was raped by the Mongol Khan. Islam had this introspective period where they saw the Mongol hordes as curse from Allah and rejected things such as science or philosophy as outside influences from the Greeks in the following years they crushed the Mongols and pushed their borders back reestablishing the Caliphate. I find it so stupid that White people think that the rest of the world will act like them.


(BTW I am White and non-Muslim in case you are wondering.)
I don't recall denying that the Islamic world has had revolutions, just that they haven't effected fundamental change on the level that Muhammad did when he founded Islam and spread it throughout Arabia. Unless someone of the stature of a Muhammad, or an Ataturk, creates an entirely new set of values to completely change the culture of the Middle East, I don't think we'll see too much fundamental change.
0
reply
CookieButter
Badges: 15
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#6
Report 5 years ago
#6
Western Powers call it the "The Arab Spring"

The Arabs call it "The Colonialists Spring".

I think the latter is a more accurate description of what is going on in the middle-east...
0
reply
Cato the Elder
Badges: 3
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#7
Report Thread starter 5 years ago
#7
When did I say that?
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How would you describe the quality of the digital skills you're taught at school?

Excellent (37)
9.71%
Okay (110)
28.87%
A bit lacking (143)
37.53%
Not good at all (91)
23.88%

Watched Threads

View All