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How do people end up wanting to join the military?
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I think you have a very narrow and stereotypical view of the military and the people who join them.
Lots of men enjoy difficult tasks and overcoming them. To be in the army (and especially the Royal Marines), you need to take several vigorous tests demonstrating your physical capabilities. You need dedication, discipline and be a team player. You have to travel through land and water, no matter the elements or the time of day. You need to know how to defend yourself, how to fight, how to load, shoot and clean a gun. It's difficult to do these things as a civillian, and as a soldier, you'all be in the right environment, have the right guidance and a new set of adopted brothers to test and discuss your skills with.
Some men dream of the adventure. Some find it hard to make friends. Some want to be good with guns. These are all reasons for joining the military.
There are plenty of apprenticeships that you can take in the RAF. You'll get minimum wage while training, and full time pay after, experience and a vocational skill/degree.
And then there are those who join because they have little direction in life, or they want to make some money. The military has room for all sorts of people. At the moment, England isn't at war with any country except for ISIS and there are no troops on the ground (as far as I know). So your risk of dying anytime soon is about zero.
Lots of men enjoy difficult tasks and overcoming them. To be in the army (and especially the Royal Marines), you need to take several vigorous tests demonstrating your physical capabilities. You need dedication, discipline and be a team player. You have to travel through land and water, no matter the elements or the time of day. You need to know how to defend yourself, how to fight, how to load, shoot and clean a gun. It's difficult to do these things as a civillian, and as a soldier, you'all be in the right environment, have the right guidance and a new set of adopted brothers to test and discuss your skills with.
Some men dream of the adventure. Some find it hard to make friends. Some want to be good with guns. These are all reasons for joining the military.
There are plenty of apprenticeships that you can take in the RAF. You'll get minimum wage while training, and full time pay after, experience and a vocational skill/degree.
And then there are those who join because they have little direction in life, or they want to make some money. The military has room for all sorts of people. At the moment, England isn't at war with any country except for ISIS and there are no troops on the ground (as far as I know). So your risk of dying anytime soon is about zero.
Original post by 0to100
lmao they'd find out
Yeah I wouldn't even try it on with the army, I accept their decision as it's understandable. :P
Original post by Drewski
You make a lot of gross (and frankly, simply ignorant) generalisations here.
Why do you assume / talk like the only role in the Armed forces is infantry soldier?
Of the - roughly - 200,000 people in the UK full time military, of this only around 90,000 are Army and of that less than a quarter are in the "cannon fodder" roles that you assume all military personnel to be.
Until you have a realistic view of what the Armed Forces are, who it is that's serving and how they all got in you'll have no hope of adequately understanding the answer to your question.
Why do you assume / talk like the only role in the Armed forces is infantry soldier?
Of the - roughly - 200,000 people in the UK full time military, of this only around 90,000 are Army and of that less than a quarter are in the "cannon fodder" roles that you assume all military personnel to be.
Until you have a realistic view of what the Armed Forces are, who it is that's serving and how they all got in you'll have no hope of adequately understanding the answer to your question.
PRSOM
Amazing how many people whose military experience is zero or military themed youth organisations are experts on the Forces and dismiss the opinions of those who have served ( whether gp A Reserve , Regular , or NRPS/FTRS)
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AshEntropy
Yeah I wouldn't even try it on with the army, I accept their decision as it's understandable. :P
any shenanigans against any army in any country is just the daftest thang eva mang
Original post by Drewski
You make a lot of gross generalisations here.
Why do you assume / talk like the only role in the Armed forces is infantry soldier?
Of the - roughly - 200,000 people in the UK full time military, of this only around 90,000 are Army and of that less than a quarter are in the "cannon fodder" roles that you assume all military personnel to be.
Until you have a realistic view of what the Armed Forces are, who it is that's serving and how they all got in you'll have no hope of adequately understanding the answer to your question.
Why do you assume / talk like the only role in the Armed forces is infantry soldier?
Of the - roughly - 200,000 people in the UK full time military, of this only around 90,000 are Army and of that less than a quarter are in the "cannon fodder" roles that you assume all military personnel to be.
Until you have a realistic view of what the Armed Forces are, who it is that's serving and how they all got in you'll have no hope of adequately understanding the answer to your question.
I'm aware that there are other roles in the military as well, for example some good friends of mine who studied medicine have gone on to serve the military in their capacities as doctors.
But you're right, I am referring, not to every single person in the military, but to those people on the front line who directly engage in combat, who are of the lower ranks, are considered the least "valuable" and are the lowest paid.
Regardless of the number of people in the military fulfilling other roles, I still find it unfortunate, astonishing and curious that people still end up convinced to sign up for these so-called "heroic" roles.
What do you want to do for a living OP?
Wanted to join ever since I was a child. I don't care much for patriotism and all that jazz, I want to join because I want a unique career, I want to be fit, strong minded and develop a broad range of transferable skills. Training in management is supposedly world class, good pay once rent/food is accounted for, and you are generally a force for good; humanitarian efforts, big emphasis on charity etc
Wanted to join ever since I was a child. I don't care much for patriotism and all that jazz, I want to join because I want a unique career, I want to be fit, strong minded and develop a broad range of transferable skills. Training in management is supposedly world class, good pay once rent/food is accounted for, and you are generally a force for good; humanitarian efforts, big emphasis on charity etc
Original post by SirMilkSheikh
I think you have a very narrow and stereotypical view of the military and the people who join them.
Lots of men enjoy difficult tasks and overcoming them. To be in the army (and especially the Royal Marines), you need to take several vigorous tests demonstrating your physical capabilities.
There are plenty of apprenticeships that you can take in the RAF. You'll get minimum wage while training, and full time pay after, experience and a vocational skill/degree.
And then there are those who join because they have little direction in life, or they want to make some money. The military has room for all sorts of people. At the moment, England isn't at war with any country except for ISIS and there are no troops on the ground (as far as I know). So your risk of dying anytime soon is about zero.
Lots of men enjoy difficult tasks and overcoming them. To be in the army (and especially the Royal Marines), you need to take several vigorous tests demonstrating your physical capabilities.
There are plenty of apprenticeships that you can take in the RAF. You'll get minimum wage while training, and full time pay after, experience and a vocational skill/degree.
And then there are those who join because they have little direction in life, or they want to make some money. The military has room for all sorts of people. At the moment, England isn't at war with any country except for ISIS and there are no troops on the ground (as far as I know). So your risk of dying anytime soon is about zero.
literally what I said in an even better way, and what is true
I know lads who want to join the RAF and you have seriously underlined it damn near perfectly as far as who they are, their background, their current circumstances, and their reasons.
Original post by hezzlington
What do you want to do for a living OP?
Wanted to join ever since I was a child. I don't care much for patriotism and all that jazz, I want to join because I want a unique career, I want to be fit, strong minded and develop a broad range of transferable skills. Training in management is supposedly world class, good pay once rent/food is accounted for, and you are generally a force for good; humanitarian efforts, big emphasis on charity etc
Wanted to join ever since I was a child. I don't care much for patriotism and all that jazz, I want to join because I want a unique career, I want to be fit, strong minded and develop a broad range of transferable skills. Training in management is supposedly world class, good pay once rent/food is accounted for, and you are generally a force for good; humanitarian efforts, big emphasis on charity etc
Uh oh you're gonna get trolled
Original post by DarkEnergy
What's wrong with patriotism? Seems like you are virtue signalling.
I'd personally never join, I can see why people would want to. It gives you money, opportunity, respect, discipline, experiences, and gets you ripped in the process. It's an easy way to get out of your current situation.
I'd personally never join, I can see why people would want to. It gives you money, opportunity, respect, discipline, experiences, and gets you ripped in the process. It's an easy way to get out of your current situation.
(Assuming we are talking about rank-and-file soldiers here)
I think that might be over-romanticising it. The money is only 'good' if you don't have the skills/qualifications to earn a bit above average. This means that the salary of soldiers mainly appeals to people who didn't go to university and are stuck doing low paid manual labour or menial office work otherwise.
The 'opportunities' that being in the army bring include signing away a minimum of 7 years of your life. So, often the people willing to do that are the ones who have little else going for them in their life that's worth sticking around for.
Respect is dodgy because there is a sizable and growing number of people who do not respect soldiers, viewing them as dumb/aggressive/violent whatever. Other people will worship them because they're a soldier.
By 'getting ripped' I assume you mean getting ripped apart by bullets? Lol but sure it's true that soldiers do get in good shape. But that alone isn't reason enough to join the army, because you could always join a gym.
And finally a lot of the soldiers themselves had overly-romantic assumptions of what being in the army would be like.
Original post by tazarooni89
I'm aware that there are other roles in the military as well, for example some good friends of mine who studied medicine have gone on to serve the military in their capacities as doctors.
But you're right, I am referring, not to every single person in the military, but to those people on the front line who directly engage in combat, who are of the lower ranks, are considered the least "valuable" and are the lowest paid.
Regardless of the number of people in the military fulfilling other roles, I still find it unfortunate, astonishing and curious that people still end up convinced to sign up for these so-called "heroic" roles.
But you're right, I am referring, not to every single person in the military, but to those people on the front line who directly engage in combat, who are of the lower ranks, are considered the least "valuable" and are the lowest paid.
Regardless of the number of people in the military fulfilling other roles, I still find it unfortunate, astonishing and curious that people still end up convinced to sign up for these so-called "heroic" roles.
Actually, you'll find that generally they're not the lowest paid. Or at least, once they've finished training and are at a point where they're able to sent on ops, that they're paid pretty well compared to the national average. After all, how else would they get people to sign up?
Secondly, it's 'other people' who call them heroic. I know a huge number of people in all 3 branches of the Armed Forces (including myself) who have or are serving, not a single one of them would ever dream of calling themselves a hero. Even the pilots. And their egos are larger than most planets. That's a very American notion and not one shared by the British Armed Forces. For good reason. It's *******s.
And while I feel like I could explain the reasoning behind the motivation for some people, I fear you simply wouldn't understand it because it doesn't fit your own world view. You can't fathom it, therefore nobody else should. But the world doesn't work like that. Plenty of people do want to. One glance at the Armed Forces Careers section of this very website will show you that.
The only stereotype he missed is everyone in the military is stupid/uneducated/working class. Smh
Original post by DarkEnergy
What's wrong with patriotism? Seems like you are virtue signalling.
There's nothing wrong with loving and serving your country. But I think the kind of "blind patriotism" that people are expected to display in the context of the military requires a serious suspension of judgement. To surrender yourself to unconditional service to your country, regardless of the cause you're being asked to fight for, and without question whatsoever - well, I feel it degrades a person to just becoming a tool of the government.
To use another quote from Leo Tolstoy: “Patriotism in its simplest, clearest, and most indubitable signification is nothing else but a means of obtaining for the rulers their ambitions and covetous desires, and for the ruled the abdication of human dignity, reason, and conscience, and a slavish enthralment to those in power.”
I'd personally never join, I can see why people would want to. It gives you money, opportunity, respect, discipline, experiences, and gets you ripped in the process. It's an easy way to get out of your current situation.
I'd argue that you can get the same things from pretty much any good job (other than perhaps getting ripped, for which you might need a gym membership).
Original post by Abstract_Prism
I think that might be over-romanticising it. The money is only 'good' if you don't have the skills/qualifications to earn a bit above average. This means that the salary of soldiers mainly appeals to people who didn't go to university and are stuck doing low paid manual labour or menial office work otherwise.
The 'opportunities' that being in the army bring include signing away a minimum of 7 years of your life. So, often the people willing to do that are the ones who have little else going for them in their life that's worth sticking around for.
Respect is dodgy because there is a sizable and growing number of people who do not respect soldiers, viewing them as dumb/aggressive/violent whatever. Other people will worship them because they're a soldier.
By 'getting ripped' I assume you mean getting ripped apart by bullets? Lol but sure it's true that soldiers do get in good shape. But that alone isn't reason enough to join the army, because you could always join a gym.
And finally a lot of the soldiers themselves had overly-romantic assumptions of what being in the army would be like.
The 'opportunities' that being in the army bring include signing away a minimum of 7 years of your life. So, often the people willing to do that are the ones who have little else going for them in their life that's worth sticking around for.
Respect is dodgy because there is a sizable and growing number of people who do not respect soldiers, viewing them as dumb/aggressive/violent whatever. Other people will worship them because they're a soldier.
By 'getting ripped' I assume you mean getting ripped apart by bullets? Lol but sure it's true that soldiers do get in good shape. But that alone isn't reason enough to join the army, because you could always join a gym.
And finally a lot of the soldiers themselves had overly-romantic assumptions of what being in the army would be like.
Yes, your first point pretty much goes without saying. I'm not sure how rank progression works, but the salaries really aren't that bad: https://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Ratesofpay-Regular.pdf . Especially when you consider that being in the army means pretty much all your income is disposable.
You can also get job training whilst in the army (I believe you can get vocational qualifications). Again, that second point may be true, hence why I said in my original post "It's an easy way to get out of your current situation." - I remember reading before that joining the army was one of the top ways to escape poverty. Can't find a source on it so take that with a grain of salt.
As for your point on respect - http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/1150/bsa29_armed_forces.pdf . Eight out of ten people in Britain have a high/very high opinion of the Armed Forces. 75% had a 'great deal' of respect for the UK armed forces, 20% had 'some', with only 5% having not a lot or none at all. Of course there will always be people who oppose the military, but with the turmoil going on in the world right now I doubt the number is going to significantly increase any time soon.
I never said any of the reasons were good. Just stating some possible reasons why people may join. But yeah I doubt getting ripped is a major factor, was just adding it on really.
I agree with your last point.
Original post by tazarooni89
There's nothing wrong with loving and serving your country. But I think the kind of "blind patriotism" that people are expected to display in the context of the military requires a serious suspension of judgement. To surrender yourself to unconditional service to your country, regardless of the cause you're being asked to fight for, and without question whatsoever - well, I feel it degrades a person to just becoming a tool of the government.
I'd argue that you can get the same things from pretty much any good job (other than perhaps getting ripped, for which you might need a gym membership).
I'd argue that you can get the same things from pretty much any good job (other than perhaps getting ripped, for which you might need a gym membership).
I agree with your first point.
But with your second point (aside from the ripped thing haha)... how do you suggest people get these 'good jobs'? Purely conjecture, but I'd say on average the people who join the army aren't the same people who desire to go to university, get a degree, then walk into some swanky office job. Provided you can pass the physical tests, it's a lot easier to join the army than to find a job.
Original post by FreedomTower
That's beyond discrimination! 
It's the army not child's play, having decent social skills is vital in some situations, especially when death (of you, or other people) is the consequence.
Original post by tazarooni89
To surrender yourself to unconditional service to your country, regardless of the cause you're being asked to fight for, and without question whatsoever
It's not unconditional and you are allowed to question.
But do keep going...
Original post by tazarooni89
I'd argue that you can get the same things from pretty much any good job (other than perhaps getting ripped, for which you might need a gym membership).
There are certainly job types / companies out there where a good employee might get one, two or even a few of the ancillary benefits that all members of the armed forces get. But I don't know of any employer who'd be able to offer them all.
The notion that "pretty much any good job" would get you even half of the benefits is, frankly, laughable.
(edited 7 years ago)
It's been said perfectly by Drewski & several other posters but there literally are dozens of roles in each branch of the armed forces - some of which require few or no qualifications but many which certainly do.
Sydney J. Harris: "The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war."
Speaking for myself, I've had an interest in aviation since as far back as I can remember. I didn't join because I was brainwashed into thinking I'd be heroic for doing the job. I can't generalise why others join the military but I there's certainly a mixture of reasons.
Sydney J. Harris: "The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war."
Speaking for myself, I've had an interest in aviation since as far back as I can remember. I didn't join because I was brainwashed into thinking I'd be heroic for doing the job. I can't generalise why others join the military but I there's certainly a mixture of reasons.
Original post by Drewski
Actually, you'll find that generally they're not the lowest paid. Or at least, once they've finished training and are at a point where they're able to sent on ops, that they're paid pretty well compared to the national average. After all, how else would they get people to sign up?
Secondly, it's 'other people' who call them heroic. I know a huge number of people in all 3 branches of the Armed Forces (including myself) who have or are serving, not a single one of them would ever dream of calling themselves a hero. Even the pilots. And their egos are larger than most planets. That's a very American notion and not one shared by the British Armed Forces. For good reason. It's *******s.
Secondly, it's 'other people' who call them heroic. I know a huge number of people in all 3 branches of the Armed Forces (including myself) who have or are serving, not a single one of them would ever dream of calling themselves a hero. Even the pilots. And their egos are larger than most planets. That's a very American notion and not one shared by the British Armed Forces. For good reason. It's *******s.
The thing is, I think that some people who have served in military roles genuinely are heroic; the ones who, of their own accord, risk their lives in order to save the lives of others (rather than risking their lives regardless of the cause, because they were ordered to do so and had no choice). I would say that those kinds of people deserve something closer to a footballer's salary rather than just something above the national average.
You're right though, it's other people who use the term "hero" as a blanket descriptor of anyone in the armed forces. As I said in my original post, politicians, the media, and subsequently the wider public seem to end up throwing these kinds of (often insincere) compliments around quite a lot. Considering what the profession entails, I think the pay and other rewards for it seem to be quite menial. So this makes me imagine a new recruit highly geared up to join the army saying "Right, I'm going to go through all this hard training and bravely risk my life to serve my country, but it'll definitely all be worth it in the end! What am I going to get for all my devotion and service to this extremely important job?" And the response comes back... "Uhh... respect!"
And while I feel like I could explain the reasoning behind the motivation for some people, I fear you simply wouldn't understand it because it doesn't fit your own world view. You can't fathom it, therefore nobody else should. But the world doesn't work like that. Plenty of people do want to. One glance at the Armed Forces Careers section of this very website will show you that.
I appreciate the other responses you're providing as well as your point of view, as someone who has pursued this career.
But I think this particular argument of yours is one that anyone could simply apply to anybody who doesn't agree with them about anything. If I wished to debate with you along a similar line of reasoning I could just as easily say that your view of the matter is distorted by a kind of choice-supportive bias. But I won't.
Original post by Drewski
It's not unconditional and you are allowed to question.
But do keep going...
But do keep going...
Are you allowed to say "I refuse to play any further part in the Iraq War because I feel it's being waged for illegitimate reasons, has nothing to do with the values I had in mind when signing up for this career in the first place, and therefore I don't consider it a worthy cause to risk my life for" and simply quit? Or would you get punished for desertion?
This is taken from the US Military Code of Justice so perhaps not precisely applicable to the British Army, but it's still something I find laughable. A person is guilty of desertion, an offence potentially punishable by death, if he "quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty"
So if you decide that this particular war/battle/mission is not something worth risking your life for and don't want to play any further part, well frankly, tough.
There are certainly job types / companies out there where a good employee might get one, two or even a few of the ancillary benefits that all members of the armed forces get. But I don't know of any employer who'd be able to offer them all.
The notion that "pretty much any good job" would get you even half of the benefits is, frankly, laughable.
The notion that "pretty much any good job" would get you even half of the benefits is, frankly, laughable.
The poster I had quoted mentioned money, opportunity, respect, discipline, and experiences - five things that you certainly can get in other careers.
Feel free to give examples of the other ancillary benefits of the armed forces, but in particular I'd be interested to know which of these are so great that they are worth putting your life in serious danger for.
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