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    (Original post by s43)
    As Islam doesn’t change the Quran (holy book) but other religion(s) do change their holy book. For example I have heard a religion who change their holy book to suit the modern day society, so what the point of having a holy book if you are going to keep changing it just to suit the country or world and to keep up with the modernisation.
    Rather suggestive that actually all religions are outdated and irrelevant, no?
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    (Original post by s43)
    As Islam doesn’t change the Quran (holy book) but other religion(s) do change their holy book. For example I have heard a religion who change their holy book to suit the modern day society, so what the point of having a holy book if you are going to keep changing it just to suit the country or world and to keep up with the modernisation.
    Exactly what i was gonna write , the way i see it , the 4 holy books ( what we believe in islam ) were ritten by God , and thats the way he meant it , if u wanna change it arent u subtly implying that you are better than him . Thats y muslims only regard the quran as the ultimate book , the 3 previous ones were also rite , but none of them exist as they were intented to be , they have been changed . and i think the first one doesnt even exist anymore
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    (Original post by infekt)
    Exactly what i was gonna write , the way i see it , the 4 holy books ( what we believe in islam ) were ritten by God , and thats the way he meant it , if u wanna change it arent u subtly implying that you are better than him . Thats y muslims only regard the quran as the ultimate book , the 3 previous ones were also rite , but none of them exist as they were intented to be , they have been changed . and i think the first one doesnt even exist anymore
    It disadvantages the religion though. If I find some outdated passage in the quran, it's god's unaltered word and you have to defend it or the entire religion is flawed. If I find something in the bible that's a bit unsightly, then you can just go "ohhh well it's just a human's writings it's not explicit instructions."
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Rather suggestive that actually all religions are outdated and irrelevant, no?

    Many things suggest that religions are outdated and irrelevant. This does not seem to affect the steady flow if idiots.

    MB
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    then you can just go "ohhh well it's just a human's writings it's not explicit instructions."

    Or even worse, the standard "Oh, it's just symbolism"

    MB
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    It disadvantages the religion though. If I find some outdated passage in the quran, it's god's unaltered word and you have to defend it or the entire religion is flawed. If I find something in the bible that's a bit unsightly, then you can just go "ohhh well it's just a human's writings it's not explicit instructions."
    how do u know what has been changed and wat hasnt in the bible ? if it has it was done a long time ago , had it been changed recently there would be a public outcry . lets say u find some outdated passage as u say .... u could always relate it to sumthing that has been done before . Like in those times they didnt have stuff like crack and heroin and stuff rite ? .. at least not by those names , so if its not there doesnt exactly make it legal ... but u also know that alchohol is prohibited coz it makes u do stuff u dont want to and it hurts ur body... drugs do the same thing ... so u could consider them prohibited too ...

    its better to think rather than just change to ur liking .... many goverments these days do that and theyre getting ****ed
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    why do you think so ? ... not being aggresive here , jus wondering why so many people think of it that way
    (Original post by s43)
    As Islam doesn’t change the Quran (holy book) but other religions do change their holy book. For example I have heard a religion who change their holy book to suit the modern day society, so what the point of having a holy book if you are going to keep changing it just to suit the country or world and to keep up with the modernisation.
    I think that mainstream Christianity, in the UK today is subject to a lot more flexibility than Islam. If I take my personal situation - both my parents were brought up in orthodox Christian traditions. Put simply, they were no two ways about it - they had to go to church for ritual prayer. Myself, I could count the number of times that I've stepped inside a church on two hands - and I've never been to church for ritual prayer in my life. This is also the case for a lot of 'Christian' people who I know. My parents wouldn't really be bothered if I decided to join some random cult tomorrow - they don't force religion upon me in the slightest.

    Most Moslems that I know have no choice in the matter i.e. it is expected that they go to mosque for ritual prayer. Little scope for deviation from the faith is allowed in most the Moslem households that I know of. I only know a few Moslem people who drink alcohol - most of them, at least in dealings with myself, appear to follow the necessary customs and rituals of Islam. I'm sure that they will impose a similar lifestyle on their offspring too, when they have them.

    That, for me, is the difference.
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    This is just my personal opinion as someone who was born into a muslim family but I think there is a lot of confusion as to what a Muslim is. Many of you seem to belive that you are not a muslim unless you believe every word of the Koran, but really Islam is just an umbrella term just like Christianity or Judaism. For example in parts of Africa there are many groups which drink alcohol yet still consider themselves Muslim, and in many other ways follow the Koran quite strictly. Belive it or not there are also many Muslims who are gay. The cornerstone of Islam is that there is one God and Mohammed was his final prophet. If you truly believe that then many people would consider you to be a muslim. Sure there are plenty of people in this world who wouldn't accept that unless you followed the five pillars but that is a cultural issue,which varies around the world.
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    (Original post by infekt)
    how do u know what has been changed and wat hasnt in the bible ? if it has it was done a long time ago , had it been changed recently there would be a public outcry . lets say u find some outdated passage as u say .... u could always relate it to sumthing that has been done before . Like in those times they didnt have stuff like crack and heroin and stuff rite ? .. at least not by those names , so if its not there doesnt exactly make it legal ... but u also know that alchohol is prohibited coz it makes u do stuff u dont want to and it hurts ur body... drugs do the same thing ... so u could consider them prohibited too ...

    its better to think rather than just change to ur liking .... many goverments these days do that and theyre getting ****ed

    Ok to start with, there are far too many elipses - it hurts my eyes. You have outlined an important problem which is that any religious ideology is incomplete. It could happen for example that a reicarnation of god comes along (jesus style) and says it is a sin to pray to god. All those christians from the last 2000 years wwill be in hell. So on what basis can you act in any way and claim to act on a religious ground?

    MB
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    (Original post by infekt)
    why do you think so ? ... not being aggresive here , jus wondering why so many people think of it that way
    Why do I think it's backwards and reactionary.

    I think it's backwards because it inhibits what I see as progressive attitudes. Islam is submission is it not? Submission within itself is backwards. (if you want, we could talk about the homophobic/sexist parts of the quran.)

    It's reactionary because it threatens people considering leading the faith. And as you said above, through jihad seeks to defend itself through force if it is being challenged as a faith.
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    (Original post by Pegasus)
    This is just my personal opinion as someone who was born into a muslim family but I think there is a lot of confusion as to what a Muslim is. Many of you seem to belive that you are not a muslim unless you believe every word of the Koran, but really Islam is just an umbrella term just like Christianity or Judaism. For example in parts of Africa there are many groups which drink alcohol yet still consider themselves Muslim, and in many other ways follow the Koran quite strictly. Belive it or not there are also many Muslims who are gay. The cornerstone of Islam is that there is one God and Mohammed was his final prophet. If you truly believe that then many people would consider you to be a muslim. Sure there are plenty of people in this world who wouldn't accept that unless you followed the five pillars but that is a cultural issue,which varies around the world.
    I'm sorry, I quite frankly don't believe it! The quran was delivered to Mohammed with explicit instructions as how to live. Alcohol is haram, homosexuality is banned, and to drink or to be gay is to not be a Muslim. You clearly haven't submitted to Allah's will if you're ignoring such obvious instructions.
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    (Original post by musicboy)
    Ok to start with, there are far too many elipses - it hurts my eyes. You have outlined an important problem which is that any religious ideology is incomplete. It could happen for example that a reicarnation of god comes along (jesus style) and says it is a sin to pray to god. All those christians from the last 2000 years wwill be in hell. So on what basis can you act in any way and claim to act on a religious ground?

    MB
    depends on an individuals religious ideology . being a muslim i know that wats in the quran is complete and rite , wat the prophet says wats rite ... and yeah ur very much rite ... there are ppl wholl come along claiming to be propehts ... and they have and sadly there are quite a few followers who still claim to be muslims . but as sumone said b4 , the corner stone of islam is that there is only one god and that mohhammed was the LAST prophet , not the only one ... there were many b4 him , abraham , christ , moses , ishmael etc .... but he was the last of all of em ...

    n e one comes along claiming to be a prophet well ... u jus gotta go to ur basic principles as a muslim .... keep the faith and im sure ull not rot in hell as u mentioned .... it all depends on a persons strength .. thats y the quran mentions as the struggle against oneself as the most important and the hardest form of jihad
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I'm sorry, I quite frankly don't believe it! The quran was delivered to Mohammed with explicit instructions as how to live. Alcohol is haram, homosexuality is banned, and to drink or to be gay is to not be a Muslim. You clearly haven't submitted to Allah's will if you're ignoring such obvious instructions.
    there are some who claim to be muslims and drink and dont think its a big deal .... its kinda hard to believe ....
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    (Original post by infekt)
    there are some who claim to be muslims and drink and dont think its a big deal .... its kinda hard to believe ....
    They're simply not Muslims.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I'm sorry, I quite frankly don't believe it! The quran was delivered to Mohammed with explicit instructions as how to live. Alcohol is haram, homosexuality is banned, and to drink or to be gay is to not be a Muslim. You clearly haven't submitted to Allah's will if you're ignoring such obvious instructions.
    Its attitudes like that which stop the religion moving forward!
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    maybe because once you convert theres no opotunitys to go back and so it can only increase in numbers? also with in terms of amount of praying ect its a reletivly demanding religon so becomes more a way of life rather than an aspect of it......

    lu x
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    (Original post by infekt)
    how do u know what has been changed and wat hasnt in the bible ? if it has it was done a long time ago , had it been changed recently there would be a public outcry . lets say u find some outdated passage as u say .... u could always relate it to sumthing that has been done before . Like in those times they didnt have stuff like crack and heroin and stuff rite ? .. at least not by those names , so if its not there doesnt exactly make it legal ... but u also know that alchohol is prohibited coz it makes u do stuff u dont want to and it hurts ur body... drugs do the same thing ... so u could consider them prohibited too ...

    its better to think rather than just change to ur liking .... many goverments these days do that and theyre getting ****ed
    It's better to have dynamic and logical ideas, than be bullied into inheriting those designed for ancient civilisations.
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    (Original post by infekt)
    depends on an individuals religious ideology . being a muslim i know that wats in the quran is complete and rite , wat the prophet says wats rite ... and yeah ur very much rite ... there are ppl wholl come along claiming to be propehts ... and they have and sadly there are quite a few followers who still claim to be muslims . but as sumone said b4 , the corner stone of islam is that there is only one god and that mohhammed was the LAST prophet , not the only one ... there were many b4 him , abraham , christ , moses , ishmael etc .... but he was the last of all of em ...

    n e one comes along claiming to be a prophet well ... u jus gotta go to ur basic principles as a muslim .... keep the faith and im sure ull not rot in hell as u mentioned .... it all depends on a persons strength .. thats y the quran mentions as the struggle against oneself as the most important and the hardest form of jihad

    Does the whole thing not seem a bit silly though. I could say that I am a prophet and that mohammed was wrong about being the last prophet. Surely my argument would be as valid as his.


    MB
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    (Original post by Pegasus)
    Its attitudes like that which stop the religion moving forward!
    would u rather be an alchoholic and called a muslim or be sober and called a muslim ... forget religions .. alchohol jus screws ppl up
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    (Original post by musicboy)
    Does the whole thing not seem a bit silly though. I could say that I am a prophet and that mohammed was wrong about being the last prophet. Surely my argument would be as valid as his.


    MB
    no it wouldnt ... muhammed didnt say he was last until he got the revelation from god ..... the quran was revealead to him ... hence Moses , christ muhammed and one more ( i think david , we call him Daoud in arabic dialect ) are called messengers ... the other 3 werent told they were the last , muhammad was
 
 
 
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