Oxford students encouraged to use &quot;ze&quot; instead of &quot;he&quot;/&quot;she&quot;

Original post by jneill

Except when you don't know - e.g. on TSR when the OP doesn't indicate gender in zeir profile.

zir*

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 62

I am confused by the requirement for a speaker to introduce themself with a gender neutral pronoun.

I'd have thought Hello. I am Good bloke was already gender neutral.

What pronoun is appropriate when trying to avoid giving offence to a person who self-identifies as offended by gender-neutral pronouns?

How many trans-gender people study at Oxford? How many of these are also trans-sex?

Reply 63

Original post by Good bloke

I am confused by the requirement for a speaker to introduce themself with a gender neutral pronoun.

I don't think that is what is being proposed. I think it is being suggested that people use xe when referring to those of unknown gender identity so as not to cause offence (as opposed to doing what is common - making a judgement call based upon expression).

Reply 64

Original post by Aladdinsaaane

This is actually hurting the transgender community, not helping them.

Most transgender people want to be called by 'he' or 'she' just like anyone else, and it is a few special snowflakes who made up these new labels on Tumblr which have somehow seeped into the mainstream of the SJW movement... it's pretty shocking if even places which are supposed to be intellectual like Oxford are encouraging this ********. All of this is completely against the interests of transgender people and is just creating animosity.

Actually a very good point! A transgendered woman wants to be referred to as a woman vice versa for a transgendered man. Putting a special case name reference only makes them feel more alienated, not accepted or as a 'special case'. He/she allows them to feel as if they belong, accepted as the gender they identify with. Also if I was transgender, what if I didn't want everyone to know I was transgender but it becomes known after others hear people referring to me as 'Ze'? It's a personal thing, not everyone feels comfortable with the whole community knowing they are transgender. He/She allows confidentiality, giving them the control to tell whoever they want and whenever if they decide to share this information. We should stick with he/she. Ze and other references may possibly do only more damage.

Reply 65

Original post by Kvothe the Arcane

Hmm. So, when introducing me, who would be mortally offended by the use of such stupid language, what would the introducer do? And would it be good etiquette to express my incredulity before my speech, or should I wait until the end?

If I didn't cotton on and started talking in a fake German accent, thinking I needed to do so in order to fit in, would that be OK?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 66

Original post by Kvothe the Arcane

I get that. But don't you think it's best to just ask the person what they would prefer to be referred to? When you say 'unknown gender identity', are you speaking of those who don't identify with a particular gender or a situation where for example you see someone and you don't know whether or not to call them female or male so you say xe? Because even using xe could be a judgement on it's own.

Reply 67

Original post by Cherry82

If possible, then yes questioning would be best (though I admit I would be offended if someone asked whether I was male or female as I'm a cis-male and have a fragile sense of masculinity as it is). The latter situation. Or perhaps speaking about a person who you don't know.

So for instance, when Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologist, was involved in an incident recently where he was debating some people protesting his opposition to a bill, he made the mistake of misgendering someone to whom he was replying. He would have been safer using xer so as not to be impolite.

Basically, ask or be gender neutral. Whereas now we guess and tend to only ask if they are androgynous or don't express themselves typically.

Original post by Good bloke

Hmm. So, when introducing me, who would be mortally offended by the use of such stupid language, what would the introducer do?

If they were a friend or someone you otherwise know, they'd use male pronouns. If you were being introduced for a speech or perhaps being talked about when not present by a stranger, they'd use gender neutral pronouns. It would depend on the context.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 68

The thing is, when speaking scientifically and biologically these pronouns may not even apply. Biologically a man is a man and a woman is a woman however it's culturally and socially these pronouns can apply. Doctors can use xe, ze etc out of respect but when doing medical work where the biological makeup of someone must be referred to this shouldn't offend someone. An example, a transgendered man getting pregnant would need to go to a gynaecologist that deals with female's reproductive systems. Gender neutral pronouns could be used by the doctors and consultants they see but overall they will look at the transgendered male's body as a female's body.

Reply 69

Doones

Original post by Cherry82

The point is to use ze at all times no matter if you know the person is a he/she or not.

i.e. he/she is no longer used at all.

Reply 70

Original post by jneill

The point is to use ze at all times no matter if you know the person is a he/she or not.

i.e. he/she is no longer used at all.

You speak as if Oxford students will do as these madmen say. Surely that won't happen?

This is obviously a mad plot by the Germans to win WW2 by linguistic means and seventy years too late.

Zat man ofer there vill pronounce ze vords as ve demand or ve vill take ze zum cells.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 71

Original post by Kvothe the Arcane

Lol I understand, I didn't mean ask in that manner. Ask as in, what would you prefer for someone to refer to you as. Some don't even identify with any gender and would prefer they so asking allows a person to tell you what they are comfortable with. I would never ask someone directly if they were male or female but I have politely asked a person what would they like to be referred to. I think even referring to someone as xe could be possibly offensive. What if the person isn't transgendered but is just a very feminine looking man or masculine looking woman? I would be offended if I am not transgender and someone referred to me as xe since it would make me think whether or not I look like a woman. What about a transgendered person who is called xe but gets hurt by that because they hoped to look like a woman or man enough for people to refer to them as he or she? That happens too. I respect your opinion. I think there's not an entire win, win situation here. Either way people will get offended. But asking allows someone to express themselves without us giving them labels from our own judgement whether that's xe, he, ze, she etc.

Reply 72

Original post by jneill

The point is to use ze at all times no matter if you know the person is a he/she or not.

i.e. he/she is no longer used at all.

Oh, it appears I misunderstood. That's not going to happen.

Reply 73

Original post by the bear

while they are on the crazy bus they should rename Mansfield College to Personsfield College.

Not to mention changing Harris Manchester to Harris Personchester, Lady Margaret Hall to Noble Margaret Hall, and The Queen's College to The Non-CIS College.

Reply 74

Doones

Original post by Kvothe the Arcane

Oh, it appears I misunderstood. That's not going to happen.

Probably not. :smile:

But I do like the idea, however "ze" has too much other baggage with it.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 75

the bear

Original post by Good bloke

Not to mention changing Harris Manchester to Harris Personchester, Lady Margaret Hall to Noble Margaret Hall, and The Queen's College to The Non-CIS College.

[scrollr]

[/scrollr]

[scroll] :jive:

[/scroll]

[scrollr] :jive:

[/scrollr]

Well Played ~~Sir~~ ungendered pronoun !!

:congrats:

Reply 76

username521617

Or how about we just use he and she as we have done for hundreds of years without any problems?

No one should feel obligated to change the way they speak and use made up words simply to appease a tiny minority of individuals who might feel offended if somebody calls them 'he' or 'she' when they prefer something else.

Reply 77

Original post by jneill

The point is to use ze at all times no matter if you know the person is a he/she or not.

i.e. he/she is no longer used at all.

Ze at all times? I wouldn't mind this, I think it's a good idea actually as it allows knocks down these masculinity stereotypes of what is considered a man socially or what is considered a woman culturally. It's something I would even probably use when referring to my children but because of how this world is, this would cause major complications. Outside of oxford, globally the world and others would not catch on especially due to religious beliefs. My family are of African descent and love their culture. Try going to Africa with this and they would ridicule you unfortunately. I think for an environment as Oxford that's fine but if we were to make this a thing as a society, then globally there will need to be a change of vision. Islam, Christianity and even Judaism influence many societies and common beliefs. Luckily for some Christians, some are taught spirits have no gender so you'll find some Christians very opened to using these term because of this belief. From my own experience, I've met few religious Christians opened to and using gender-neutral terms on everyone because he/she believed it was addressing people in their purest, spiritual form where spirits have no gender just consciousness. The irony though is, but when addressing God, Jesus and the holy spirit which aren't human entities- God and the holy spirit are thought to be male though the bible emphasises God is both in essence.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 78