More trouble for Brexit... Watch

InnerTemple
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The whole thing is starting to look like a bit of a joke.

In the months since June, we've seen how reliant our economy is on EU membership. Despite the Leavers telling us we'd be fine going it alone.

The EU hasn't quite bent over backwards to give us the deal we want... which the Leavers said would happen.

Financial businesses have started talks on moving abroad.... which Leavers said wouldn't happen.

And now poor old Hammond is thinking about extending the 2 year negotiation period. Despite Leavers being confident in the UK getting what it wanted pronto.

I thought the Brexit vote was meant to be a crowning achievement for the UK. Instead the Kingdom is looking rather silly. Brexit has become an embarrassing side show, stealing light from other important matters - the NHS is in crisis, Prisons are struggling after years of Tory rule, social care is up the creek... the list goes on.

Still, at least we might get blue passports again.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
In the months since June, we've seen how reliant our economy is on EU membership. Despite the Leavers telling us we'd be fine going it alone.
How so?

(Original post by InnerTemple)
The EU hasn't quite bent over backwards to give us the deal we want... which the Leavers said would happen.
What an absolute strawman argument. No one said that. What was said is that in a game of chicken the EU will jump first. The EU aren't idiots. Of course they aren't going to just hand us a cushy deal before we've even activated article 50.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
Financial businesses have started talks on moving abroad.... which Leavers said wouldn't happen.
France is trying to woo them over. Of course the French would attempt as such, it's France ffs. That's hardly indicative of anything, nor are financial businesses seeing what their options are.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
And now poor old Hammond is thinking about extending the 2 year negotiation period. Despite Leavers being confident in the UK getting what it wanted pronto.
Phil Hammond voted Remain. What exactly is a Europhile MP trying to fend off a hard Brexit meant to prove? On top of that he's dull and boring so of course he wants a transition period. MPs dithering and being crap at their jobs doesn't really prove much about the merits of Brexit.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
I thought the Brexit vote was meant to be a crowning achievement for the UK. Instead the Kingdom is looking rather silly. Brexit has become an embarrassing side show, stealing light from other important matters - the NHS is in crisis, Prisons are struggling after years of Tory rule, social care is up the creek... the list goes on.

Still, at least we might get blue passports again.
Melodramatic much? As Remainers keep ranting anytime we point out the economy has not in fact imploded yet, nothing much has actually happened regarding our status in the EU. Brexit will be the crowning achievement for the UK, when it actually takes place.
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Aladdinsaaane
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
How so?



What an absolute strawman argument. No one said that. What was said is that in a game of chicken the EU will jump first. The EU aren't idiots. Of course they aren't going to just hand us a cushy deal before we've even activated article 50.



France is trying to woo them over. Of course the French would attempt as such, it's France ffs. That's hardly indicative of anything, nor are financial businesses seeing what their options are.



Phil Hammond voted Remain. What exactly is a Europhile MP trying to fend off a hard Brexit meant to prove? On top of that he's dull and boring so of course he wants a transition period. MPs dithering and being crap at their jobs doesn't really prove much about the merits of Brexit.



Melodramatic much? As Remainers keep ranting anytime we point out the economy has not in fact imploded yet, nothing much has actually happened regarding our status in the EU. Brexit will be the crowning achievement for the UK, when it actually takes place.
I completely agree

There's really no need for this soap opera-esque screeching
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mariachi
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
The whole thing is starting to look like a bit of a joke..
personally, I think that, as time goes by, Brexit seems more and more unlikely

it is unlikely that the UK Supreme Court will go against the ruling by the High Court of England and Wales on the royal prerogative, and it is unlikely that Parliament will take a vote on activating article 50 anytime soon : in fact, a general election might take place before this occurs, with the main parties split on the subject

so, many more things will happen, and most likely Brexit will die its own slow death

this is of course just my personal view
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username878267
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
The whole thing is starting to look like a bit of a joke.

In the months since June, we've seen how reliant our economy is on EU membership. Despite the Leavers telling us we'd be fine going it alone.

The EU hasn't quite bent over backwards to give us the deal we want... which the Leavers said would happen.

Financial businesses have started talks on moving abroad.... which Leavers said wouldn't happen.

And now poor old Hammond is thinking about extending the 2 year negotiation period. Despite Leavers being confident in the UK getting what it wanted pronto.

I thought the Brexit vote was meant to be a crowning achievement for the UK. Instead the Kingdom is looking rather silly. Brexit has become an embarrassing side show, stealing light from other important matters - the NHS is in crisis, Prisons are struggling after years of Tory rule, social care is up the creek... the list goes on.

Still, at least we might get blue passports again.
I do remember a few on here saying that the EU will give us everything we want because we are so important and that they'd be stupid not to.
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3121
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I'm getting fed up with this, I seriously don't care anymore. Too many reactionists and it's so annoying. Seriously do you not think logically? Hammond is saying for business, a transitional stage may be required as we are going to leave the single and don't want any shocks, it's a simple statement with good logic. Stop overreacting
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InnerTemple
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Oh dear. Another Leaver in denial.

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
What an absolute strawman argument. No one said that. What was said is that in a game of chicken the EU will jump first. The EU aren't idiots. Of course they aren't going to just hand us a cushy deal before we've even activated article 50.
"No one ever said that!!" Yeah, sure - no one ever said that the EU would crumble and offer us any deal we wanted. No one ever fudged statistics on the balance of trade and claimed this supported their case. No one ever shouted "scaremonger!!" whenever someone hinted that the EU might not be at all co-operative.

No one ever said that. In fact, Boris Johnson still isn't saying that the whole thing will be done and dusted in less than 2 years.

France is trying to woo them over. Of course the French would attempt as such, it's France ffs. That's hardly indicative of anything, nor are financial businesses seeing what their options are.
"So what? Everyone said it would happen. And now businesses are seriously looking into it. But that doesn't mean anything. Oh! Look over there!! Look away from the recent news stories about this. Look!"

Good thing the House of Lords Brexit committee is taking this a bit more seriously.

Phil Hammond voted Remain. What exactly is a Europhile MP trying to fend off a hard Brexit meant to prove? On top of that he's dull and boring so of course he wants a transition period. MPs dithering and being crap at their jobs doesn't really prove much about the merits of Brexit.
"Hammond is just the Chancellor. Look here are some generic insults about him being dull to show that what he says doesn't matter. The important thing is that Nigel and Co said things would be fine."

I refer back to what I said above - so many people went on about this being done and dusted soon. Any mention of this being a complex process was met by cries of "Scaremonger!!" and people talking about how the UK was so important, it would always get it's own way... apart from while we are in the EU. (I never got my head around that contradiction...)

Melodramatic much? As Remainers keep ranting anytime we point out the economy has not in fact imploded yet, nothing much has actually happened regarding our status in the EU. Brexit will be the crowning achievement for the UK, when it actually takes place.
Nice use of the word "yet".

The economy is shrinking. Debt is increasing. Yesterday we heard that a sharp slowdown was expected... and we haven't even left yet.

The only good thing is that Hammond adopted Ed Ball's economic plans.
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
Oh dear. Another Leaver in denial.

"No one ever said that!!" Yeah, sure - no one ever said that the EU would crumble and offer us any deal we wanted. No one ever fudged statistics on the balance of trade and claimed this supported their case. No one ever shouted "scaremonger!!" whenever someone hinted that the EU might not be at all co-operative.
Precisely. Unless you want to provide quotes or proof? The belief is that the EU will eventually 'crumble'. No one ever claimed the EU would 'crumble' before we even activated article 50. What an absolutely ludicrous claim on your part. Like seriously, just absolute nonsense. You lose all credibility when you make such stupid, outlandish claims.
What fudged statistics? Are you claiming that we do not in fact import more than 67 billion pounds worth of goods from the EU than we export to them, while outside of the EU we export 30 billion pounds more than we import? How exactly does the balance of trade support the Remain vote then, which is what you seem to be implying?

(Original post by InnerTemple)
No one ever said that. In fact, Boris Johnson still isn't saying that the whole thing will be done and dusted in less than 2 years.
What exactly is that meant to prove either way? Boris Johnson is being optimistic, oh dear that clearly proves Brexit will be a fiasco eh? :rolleyes:

(Original post by InnerTemple)
"So what? Everyone said it would happen. And now businesses are seriously looking into it. But that doesn't mean anything. Oh! Look over there!! Look away from the recent news stories about this. Look!"
What exactly are you meant to be proving with such ridiculous facetious strawman fallacies? You keep arguing things few Leavers were claiming. The general consensus from Leavers is that there would be economic fallout from the Brexit vote, but that it would be worth it in the long run. Cherry-picking a meh story about France trying to steal business from London doesn't change the fact that actually the economic fallout from the Brexit vote so far has been less than expected.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
Good thing the House of Lords Brexit committee is taking this a bit more seriously.
Again, what is this meant to prove? You keep making a whole load of statements with little coherent point to your argument. The sub-heading of the article 'Lords Brexit committee to highlight need for financial institutions to make strategic decisions before EU negotiations are finished' is common sense. Of course they need to be able to make strategic decisions as early as possible, if possible. Again, why does that prove Brexit is in trouble, as you claim?

(Original post by InnerTemple)
"Hammond is just the Chancellor. Look here are some generic insults about him being dull to show that what he says doesn't matter. The important thing is that Nigel and Co said things would be fine."
You're on form with the strawman arguments today. Europhile MPs making a half-arsed attempt at a job they don't have the heart nor balls for doesn't detract from the core principles behind the argument of Brexit. It's extremely intellectually dishonest for you to suggest otherwise. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Leave voters are generally not happy with Philip Hammond's statements either.
If your argument was that this current Conservative government will not do a very good job in delivering a timely Brexit deal then I would whole-heartedly agree. However your argument that in theory Brexit has to be bad for the UK is hogwash.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
I refer back to what I said above - so many people went on about this being done and dusted soon. Any mention of this being a complex process was met by cries of "Scaremonger!!" and people talking about how the UK was so important, it would always get it's own way... apart from while we are in the EU. (I never got my head around that contradiction...)
No one said 'scaremonger' to that. They said 'scaremonger' to Osborne's threat of a punishment budget, or David Cameron claiming Brexit could lead to war in Europe. You consistently 'refute' claims that Leavers do not make. Of course it's a complex process.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
Nice use of the word "yet".
Something that is predicted but not happened has obviously not happened yet. The word emphasises the fact that your predictions continue to be wrong. It's basic English.

(Original post by InnerTemple)
The economy is shrinking. Debt is increasing. Yesterday we heard that a sharp slowdown was expected... and we haven't even left yet.

The only good thing is that Hammond adopted Ed Ball's economic plans.
The last time the economy shrank was Q4 2012, so no, it's not shrinking. Debt is increasing whether we stay in the EU or leave since we still have a budget deficit. To imply that is the result of the Brexit vote is an outright falsehood (ironic for someone crying about apparent Leave campaign false claims). A slowdown in economic growth while we leave the EU is entirely expected. Leaving effectively a free trade agreement with our largest trading partner is hardly going to magically boost the economy in the short-term. No one said otherwise. Again, that said, the predictions and results continue to be better than the apocalypse Remainers claimed would happen. So again, care to explain what exactly this cherry-picked analysis of yours is meant to prove? Please quote me someone who said things would be glorious and dandy before 2016 even ended?
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Asolare
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God bless Theresa May her entire run as PM is just gonna be trying to deal with the Brexit mess.
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Ambitious1999
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
The whole thing is starting to look like a bit of a joke.

In the months since June, we've seen how reliant our economy is on EU membership. Despite the Leavers telling us we'd be fine going it alone.

The EU hasn't quite bent over backwards to give us the deal we want... which the Leavers said would happen.

Financial businesses have started talks on moving abroad.... which Leavers said wouldn't happen.

And now poor old Hammond is thinking about extending the 2 year negotiation period. Despite Leavers being confident in the UK getting what it wanted pronto.

I thought the Brexit vote was meant to be a crowning achievement for the UK. Instead the Kingdom is looking rather silly. Brexit has become an embarrassing side show, stealing light from other important matters - the NHS is in crisis, Prisons are struggling after years of Tory rule, social care is up the creek... the list goes on.

Still, at least we might get blue passports again.
But Brexit means Brexit. We are totally leaving the EU, all of us because the people voted to leave and 70% of politicians are Europhobic. The remain campaign has no political support neither from a Europhobic population or a Europhobic parliament.

Not to mention the fact that Europe now hates Britain because of the referendum and growing Europhobia. I know of several Brits that feel ostracised when they visit European countries. Even In Austria, Salzburg Airport is opening a spare terminal just for British passengers, while all other nationalities use the normal terminal.
In say 10 years the Brits will be gradually pushed out of the Spanish Costas replaced probably by the rich Russians.

When we leave we can look maybe towards Canada. We might agree some kind of free market with them including the rights to live work and study in Canada as we once used to in the EU. Sadly our relationship with Europe is over.
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macromicro
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(Original post by mariachi)
personally, I think that, as time goes by, Brexit seems more and more unlikely

it is unlikely that the UK Supreme Court will go against the ruling by the High Court of England and Wales on the royal prerogative, and it is unlikely that Parliament will take a vote on activating article 50 anytime soon : in fact, a general election might take place before this occurs, with the main parties split on the subject

so, many more things will happen, and most likely Brexit will die its own slow death

this is of course just my personal view
It would be democratic suicide if power on the matter was conceded to parliament and the people's vote was not reflected. I voted remain but I would rather we left than have the referendum undermined. And let's not forget that May has only been Prime Minister for 5 months; it's rather hyperbolic to already start talking of the next election.
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username2950448
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
The economy is shrinking. Debt is increasing. Yesterday we heard that a sharp slowdown was expected... and we haven't even left yet.
How exactly is the economy "shrinking"? :confused:
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mariachi
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(Original post by macromicro)
It would be democratic suicide if power on the matter was conceded to parliament and the people's vote was not reflected. I voted remain but I would rather we left than have the referendum undermined. And let's not forget that May has only been Prime Minister for 5 months; it's rather hyperbolic to already start talking of the next election.
UK constitutional law includes a principle called parliamentary sovereignty
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

so, power has not to be "conceded" to Parliament : it already possesses it
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username2950448
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(Original post by mariachi)
UK constitutional law includes a principle called parliamentary sovereignty
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

so, power has not to be "conceded" to Parliament : it already possesses it
This presents a rather black-and-white perspective...

Your argument is that the 2015 Referendum Act supports the proposition that the outcome of the referendum was only advisory, however, this is not fully accepted. Some academics, for instance, argue that Parliament, through the 2015 Act, delegated the right to decide this issue to the people (and the people subsequently decided it - by voting in the referendum).
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mariachi
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(Original post by Palmyra)
This presents a rather black-and-white perspective...

Your argument is that the 2015 Referendum Act supports the proposition that the outcome of the referendum was only advisory, however, this is not fully accepted. Some academics, for instance, argue that Parliament, through the 2015 Act, delegated the right to decide this issue to the people (and the people subsequently decided it - by voting in the referendum).
yes, but apparently, the High Court did not follow this line of reasoning (and neither did the Government which, rather, invoked royal prerogative in order to trigger article 50 without involving Parliament)

I am not an expert on this issue (I confess that I did not read the High Court ruling), so I will stop at that

a summary of the case here
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...government-law
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username2950448
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(Original post by mariachi)
yes, but apparently, the High Court did not follow this line of reasoning (and neither did the Government which, rather, invoked royal prerogative in order to trigger article 50 without involving Parliament)

I am not an expert on this issue (I confess that I did not read the High Court ruling), so I will stop at that

a summary of the case here
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...government-law
indeed, the Government conceded that argument where many academics believe they should not have...

but if this exact scenario is replicated sometime in the future, the government in the future could plead this argument and it may succeed, so in that sense it remains true/relevant...
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macromicro
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(Original post by mariachi)
UK constitutional law includes a principle called parliamentary sovereignty
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

so, power has not to be "conceded" to Parliament : it already possesses it
I am necessarily presupposing their power they possess by using the word "conceded". The question is whether the executive has the legal (prerogative) power in this instance over triggering Article 50. It is a matter of whose right to power is by law correct.
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JamesN88
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(Original post by Ambitious1999)
But Brexit means Brexit. We are totally leaving the EU, all of us because the people voted to leave and 70% of politicians are Europhobic. The remain campaign has no political support neither from a Europhobic population or a Europhobic parliament.

Not to mention the fact that Europe now hates Britain because of the referendum and growing Europhobia. I know of several Brits that feel ostracised when they visit European countries. Even In Austria, Salzburg Airport is opening a spare terminal just for British passengers, while all other nationalities use the normal terminal.
In say 10 years the Brits will be gradually pushed out of the Spanish Costas replaced probably by the rich Russians.

When we leave we can look maybe towards Canada. We might agree some kind of free market with them including the rights to live work and study in Canada as we once used to in the EU. Sadly our relationship with Europe is over.
You're talking complete and utter ****e as usual.

Parliament is overwhelmingly pro-Remain, that's why some leavers are having such a flap over this court case. Once we've left we may have to go through non-EU/EEA passport control at any airport within those areas depending on the exit agreement(do you know the difference between an airport terminal and a desk inside it?).

And Russian oligarchs are going to swap the French Riviera for Benidorm? I doubt that somehow.

I'm in favour of a looser common market type agreement with Canada and Down Under, that could be one of the big positives of Brexit IMO.
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