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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    OH MY GOD!!! My my Vienna, you truly are the biggest hypocrite, lets not forget too long ago the threads and posts you made under your v for vendetta account, maybe not in D & D, but all the same.
    erm, so you just blew your point apart, which was non-existant in the first place btw.

    And lets not bypass the biggest irony here, you are right this moment complaining of moaners etc, and your are simultaneously replying to at thread which is one big moan.
    you have very clumsy system of definition.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    oh do continue..
    Where to begin, you complain of non-sensical, or at least agree with, posts, and you yourself give out replys like "quite" and "oh do continue", which in my book count as spam as they are irrelevant, unnecessary and ambiguous. All of which, surely, causes a breakdown in disscussion.

    You complain of complainers and are one of the most notorious complainers on the forum.

    You complain of a poor standard of posts, yet you consistantly fail to mantain a fluency and consistency in your own posts.

    Thats a start for you. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    the "good" debaters have left because if you peruse the threads opened recently, as I have, this level of one-line off topic chatter has increased and the value of a good argument has decreased. in that respect im not surprised.
    I imagine the good debaters have left because they're on their summer holidays and have something better to do

    I also imagine there are plenty of *potentially* good debaters who have been put off posting more than a couple of times in here because of the negative responces they've recieved and the fact that many of the major posters in here are absolutely inflexible in their opinions - where is the motive in debating with people who wont concede a point?
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    That might be what you'd rather have vienna, but what about the 20,905 other members
    when i asked for opinions everyone that had an opportunity to post on d+d gave theirs. almost everyone agreed, none disagreed. the guidelines were open to amendment or suggestion by everyone at everytime. for someone who again tries to polarise this around me, and its getting boring, you clearly made no effort to find out how these guidelines came into existence.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    erm, so you just blew your point apart, which was non-existant in the first place btw.


    you have very clumsy system of definition.
    How exactly did I manage to do that?

    I did not define anything, I simply made a point.

    *wheres the coherency in your argument?, stop throwing around random comments!*
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    when i asked for opinions everyone that had an opportunity to post on d+d gave theirs. almost everyone agreed, none disagreed. the guidelines were open to amendment or suggestion by everyone at everytime. for someone who again tries to polarise this around me, and its getting boring, you clearly made no effort to find out how these guidelines came into existence.
    I'm not complaining about the guidelines!

    All I'm saying is that this forum can seem unwelcoming to newer members and that the forum is about more than vigorous debate.

    The only reason it polarises around you is that you are the main voice of the D&D forum, are you not?
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    I imagine the good debaters have left because they're on their summer holidays and have something better to do
    which is what I said in the first post on this thread. "i agree" would have been sufficient.

    I also imagine there are plenty of *potentially* good debaters who have been put off posting more than a couple of times in here because of the negative responces they've recieved and the fact that many of the major posters in here are absolutely inflexible in their opinions - where is the motive in debating with people who wont concede a point?
    so we're not talking about guidelines anymore?
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    (Original post by vienna95)


    so we're not talking about guidelines anymore?
    Unwritten laws is more appropriate.
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    Well you are probably the main member of the D&D forum, it's not a criticism
    maybe the "decline" is simply because vienna has been distracted away from d&d...
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    maybe the "decline" is simply because vienna has been distracted away from d&d...
    It's lost it's guardian angel
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    (Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
    I'm not complaining about the guidelines!

    All I'm saying is that this forum can seem unwelcoming to newer members and that the forum is about more than vigorous debate.
    90% of UKL is open to anything. this small part is for a particular type of post. to put your opinions across in a coherent manner and to expect to have them challenged coherently. if you dont like that then there are plenty of other subforums that one maybe better suited for. it is after all what we frequently hear when complaints are made in GC. "if you dont like it, go elsewhere".

    The only reason it polarises around you is that you are the main voice of the D&D forum, are you not?
    no. i spoke with a number of people and decided to create a sticky. a sticky that i then pmed to alot of regular posters and older UKL members. each one gave their comments, i merely coordinated this process. as I remember LH, you were one of these people.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    which is what I said in the first post on this thread. "i agree" would have been sufficient.
    And then you said they'd been driven away by the chaff...which is it?

    so we're not talking about guidelines anymore?
    The way newbies who don't abide by the guidelines are responded to (in many cases they're ordered to stop what they're doing - not very welcoming) and the responses they recieve when trying to discuss and develop their discussion skills are both negative and unfriendly - they're two sides of the same coin. It's not the guidelines that drive people away - it's the rigidity of attitude and opinion that they represent
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    no. i spoke with a number of people and decided to create a sticky. a sticky that i then pmed to alot of regular posters and older UKL members. each one gave their comments, i merely coordinated this process. as I remember LH, you were one of these people.
    But you are still probably the most prominent member of D&D.

    As I said, I have no problem with the guidelines.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    The way newbies who don't abide by the guidelines are responded to (in many cases they're ordered to stop what they're doing - not very welcoming) and the responses they recieve when trying to discuss and develop their discussion skills are both negative and unfriendly - they're two sides of the same coin. It's not the guidelines that drive people away - it's the rigidity of attitude and opinion that they represent
    Posters that are quickly flamed and are put off merely by opposotion or critiscm to their posts are not likely to continue posting or to make valid posts anyway, by critiscing rubbish posts by newer members (and indeed older forumites )the 'established' d + d members are (as you suggested in an earlier post) helping them to learn (which is the whole point of UKL) the ways of good debate and discussion, when i first started posting here my posts were pretty idiotic with, Bush is a thick religious fool being one of my favourite phrases, but through critiscm my posts have improved and now i help to contribute something decent to the forum (i hope )
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    And then you said they'd been driven away by the chaff...which is it?
    i think youre mistaken, "yes, id rather have a higher standard with those willing to meet that posting here, than letting all and sundry post alot of chaff"

    The way newbies who don't abide by the guidelines are responded to (in many cases they're ordered to stop what they're doing - not very welcoming) and the responses they recieve when trying to discuss and develop their discussion skills are both negative and unfriendly - they're two sides of the same coin. It's not the guidelines that drive people away - it's the rigidity of attitude and opinion that they represent
    so its not the guidelines anymore, its not the tone of the posting anymore but the introduction of guidelines to newbies. if someone appears to be falling short of the guidelines, I PM them, that has been the case with poor titling etc. if there is swearing or abusive language, then it is a breach of UKL rules and moderation is regarded not least a formal reminder of whats expected. other than this I cant really recollect anytime where I have been short with anyone over a matter that they could not have had prior knowledge. I cannot speak for anyone else.
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    (Original post by [email protected])
    Posters that are quickly flamed and are put off merely by opposotion or critiscm to their posts are not likely to continue posting or to make valid posts anyway, by critiscing rubbish posts by newer members (and indeed older forumites )the 'established' d + d members are (as you suggested in an earlier post) helping them to learn the ways of good debate and discussion, when i first started posting here my posts were pretty idiotic with, Bush is a thick religious fool being one of my favourite phrases, but through critiscm my posts have improved and now i help to contribute something decent to the forum (i hope )
    indeed, Cossack found good posting was a better way of being acknowledged (and getting under my skin )
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    Fair enough vienna - if you think that d&d doesn't have a problem with the quality and variety of debate deteriating that's fine

    OK - you do think there is a problem - you just don't accept my opinion as a non regular who has been put off and the things that have put me off as being valid for anyone else

    I'm obviously just unique

    (Original post by Jonatan)
    So now it is about to happen to the UKL D&D forum as well. Why is it that every forum where you can discuss politics starts out quite interesting and then deterioates into a big uggly soup of Homophobic, Antiamerican, Neo-nazi and Religiously extreme posts. It seems to me that these forums always gets infected by people beleiving that as long as they are the last ones to post a response, and as long as their accusations they are randomly throwing around themselves are more extreme and despicable than everyone elses they have won a small victory to boost their ego. The actual content and factual accuracy of the claims is regarded as a mere ideological detail. I hate to say it but if this keeps up I wonder if I will maintain the interest to post here.
    You bloody norwegians are so boring these days - you weren't like that a thousand years ago when you were busy setting Europe on fire!

    What happened to you Vikings? You’ve become as decadent as those ghastly Americans.

    And with the new thread declaring me a god and the leader of UKL how can you possibly say that this board is deteriorating?
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    (Original post by [email protected])
    Posters that are quickly flamed and are put off merely by opposotion or critiscm to their posts are not likely to continue posting or to make valid posts anyway,
    how do you *know* that? In my experience only the dedicated trollers are the ones likely to continue posting after a serious flaming...and they certainly aren't the sort of debaters d&d needs.
    by critiscing rubbish posts by newer members (and indeed older forumites )the 'established' d + d members are (as you suggested in an earlier post) helping them to learn (which is the whole point of UKL) the ways of good debate and discussion, when i first started posting here my posts were pretty idiotic with, Bush is a thick religious fool being one of my favourite phrases, but through critiscm my posts have improved and now i help to contribute something decent to the forum (i hope )
    There are other ways of achieving the same effect without putting people off in the process.
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    (Original post by Biggles)
    You bloody norwegians are so boring these days - you weren't like that a thousand years ago when you were busy setting Europe on fire!

    What happened to you Vikings? You’ve become as decadent as those ghastly Americans.

    And with the new thread declaring me a god and the leader of UKL how can you possibly say that this board is deteriorating?
    I guessing you are yet to post the thread?
 
 
 
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