Grammar Schools vs Private Schools

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randyorton
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Does going to a top private school (Eton, Harrow, Westminster, St Pauls) as opposed to a grammar school actually give you that much of an advantage in life?
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tazarooni89
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(Original post by timster32)
Does going to a private school as opposed to a grammar school actually give you that much of an advantage in life?
It depends on what your future plans in life actually are.

Obviously at a grammar school you're more likely to be in touch and be able to identify with those of a working class background, whereas in a private school you might be raised to be culturally closer to the middle or upper classes.

Different lifestyles and professions require interaction with different strata of society to different extents. For example a GP working in a socioeconomically deprived area might benefit from being able to directly connect with those of a working class background, but that might not be true for a member of the Tory cabinet.
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RVNmax
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(Original post by timster32)
Does going to a private school as opposed to a grammar school actually give you that much of an advantage in life?
(Original post by tazarooni89)
It depends on what your future plans in life actually are.

Obviously at a grammar school you're more likely to be in touch and be able to identify with those of a working class background, whereas in a private school you might be raised to be culturally closer to the middle or upper classes.

Different lifestyles and professions require interaction with different strata of society to different extents. For example a GP working in a socioeconomically deprived area might benefit from being able to directly connect with those of a working class background, but that might not be true for a member of the Tory cabinet.
In addition, not all private schools are selective (unlike grammar schools I think, as by definition...), which creates further distinctions. On a similar note to tazarooni89's post, one example could be that at a non-selective private school, an attendee could potentially still spend their school life with other students of a greater variety of abilities. Albeit at the state school I went to, the top set maths class I was in spent the occasional lesson teaching a lower set class on a one-to-one basis.

Other pros and cons may exist between selective and non-selective school, which would feed into the private vs grammar debate. If this distinction is one you are interested in then here is a link to another thread from a few years back, which I coincidentally found tazarooni89 had posted in:
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=1295939
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randyorton
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(Original post by RVNmax)
In addition, not all private schools are selective (unlike grammar schools I think, as by definition...), which creates further distinctions. On a similar note to tazarooni89's post, one example could be that at a non-selective private school, an attendee could potentially still spend their school life with other students of a greater variety of abilities. Albeit at the state school I went to, the top set maths class I was in spent the occasional lesson teaching a lower set class on a one-to-one basis.

Other pros and cons may exist between selective and non-selective school, which would feed into the private vs grammar debate. If this distinction is one you are interested in then here is a link to another thread from a few years back, which I coincidentally found tazarooni89 had posted in:
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=1295939
I thought you had to do an entry exam to get into a private school aswell as a grammar school?
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randyorton
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(Original post by tazarooni89)
It depends on what your future plans in life actually are.

Obviously at a grammar school you're more likely to be in touch and be able to identify with those of a working class background, whereas in a private school you might be raised to be culturally closer to the middle or upper classes.

Different lifestyles and professions require interaction with different strata of society to different extents. For example a GP working in a socioeconomically deprived area might benefit from being able to directly connect with those of a working class background, but that might not be true for a member of the Tory cabinet.
Ok I understand but obviously your not entirely sure of your future plans are when you start either. I guess so but in terms of academic rigor, which would you say is better?
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Muttley79
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(Original post by timster32)
Does going to a private school as opposed to a grammar school actually give you that much of an advantage in life?
State schools ie Grammars are free, Private schools are not, why would you pay?

Teachers in Private schools don't have to be qualified to teach.

Don't assume that because you pay you get something better.
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randyorton
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(Original post by Muttley79)
State schools ie Grammars are free, Private schools are not, why would you pay?

Teachers in Private schools don't have to be qualified to teach.

Don't assume that because you pay you get something better.
Yeah but you have access to better facilities, more extra-curricular activities are available, the contacts that you can make can be extremely useful because so many of them are rich and there dads 'know people', access to more educational lectures and more well-known people come to the school to give lectures.

I'm not sure if private schools are academically better but I know that most teachers at my school are qualified apart from those who have come straight out of uni and they all get rigorously interviewed to make sure they are good enough.

Well that's why I want to know if by paying, you are getting so,etching better, because so many people go to private schools!
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cambio wechsel
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(Original post by timster32)
I thought you had to do an entry exam to get into a private school aswell as a grammar school?
this determines which private school you go to, not whether you go privately.

Certainly you'll never meet anyone who complains of having wanted to have young Tim go private but no school would take the money.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by timster32)
Yeah but you have access to better facilities, more extra-curricular activities are available, the contacts that you can make can be extremely useful because so many of them are rich and there dads 'know people', access to more educational lectures and more well-known people come to the school to give lectures.

I'm not sure if private schools are academically better but I know that most teachers at my school are qualified apart from those who have come straight out of uni and they all get rigorously interviewed to make sure they are good enough.

Well that's why I want to know if by paying, you are getting so,etching better, because so many people go to private schools!
Facilities aren't necessarily better - one Private school near me teaches students in huts!

No-one straight out of uni should be teaching - that's why there are PGCE courses - just because you know a subject does not mean you can teach it.

'Many' don't go to Private school - only about 6% of students attend one - do you really want to get somewhere on the back of someone's daddy? Do it on your own merit - it's far more satisfying.

There are excellent comprehensives too - some get really great results.
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randyorton
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(Original post by cambio wechsel)
this determines which private school you go to, not whether you go privately.

Certainly you'll never meet anyone who complains of having wanted to have young Tim go private but no school would take the money.
Oh ok.

What do you mean by this?
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randyorton
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Facilities aren't necessarily better - one Private school near me teaches students in huts!

No-one straight out of uni should be teaching - that's why there are PGCE courses - just because you know a subject does not mean you can teach it.

'Many' don't go to Private school - only about 6% of students attend one - do you really want to get somewhere on the back of someone's daddy? Do it on your own merit - it's far more satisfying.

There are excellent comprehensives too - some get really great results.
How can it be a private school then, the fees must be going somewhere?

Ok but these teachers weren't too bad so maybe they didn't need to waste time doing PGCE courses...

As in a lot of people go to private school, obviously not compared to the number that go to state schools, but there are still thousands of privately educated children. Yeah but not everyone is able to do it on their own, so it helps to know people.

Yeah they get good results- but life isn't just about academics, which is why private school students are prepared better for life. But I do think private school students do in general do better academically than grammar schools anyway.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by timster32)
How can it be a private school then, the fees must be going somewhere?

Ok but these teachers weren't too bad so maybe they didn't need to waste time doing PGCE courses...

As in a lot of people go to private school, obviously not compared to the number that go to state schools, but there are still thousands of privately educated children. Yeah but not everyone is able to do it on their own, so it helps to know people.

Yeah they get good results- but life isn't just about academics, which is why private school students are prepared better for life. But I do think private school students do in general do better academically than grammar schools anyway.
You seem poorly informed.

Private schools are there to make money and a profit for their owners - the money does not always go into improving the school! The teahing resources are often inferior - old textbooks, no overhead projectors, no 3D printing etc,

A PGCE is not a 'waste of time' - it teaches you how children learn and other topics such as psychology, teaching SEN [including able] ... What evidence do you have that the course is not important?

I know schools aren't just about academics, other schools do have plenty of other activities - just lok at a few wesbites to see the range. Local to me it's a far better range than the Private schools.

How are Privately educated children better prepared for life? They are so sheltered that 'real life' is alien to them.

Academically the results aren't better if you compare starting points - raw results tell you very little about how good the school is.

It might amuse you to know that many Private school children come and ask me for extra tuition ... quite sad really.
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randyorton
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(Original post by Muttley79)
You seem poorly informed.

Private schools are there to make money and a profit for their owners - the money does not always go into improving the school! The teahing resources are often inferior - old textbooks, no overhead projectors, no 3D printing etc,

A PGCE is not a 'waste of time' - it teaches you how children learn and other topics such as psychology, teaching SEN [including able] ... What evidence do you have that the course is not important?

I know schools aren't just about academics, other schools do have plenty of other activities - just lok at a few wesbites to see the range. Local to me it's a far better range than the Private schools.

How are Privately educated children better prepared for life? They are so sheltered that 'real life' is alien to them.

Academically the results aren't better if you compare starting points - raw results tell you very little about how good the school is.

It might amuse you to know that many Private school children come and ask me for extra tuition ... quite sad really.
I have first hand xperience so not poorly informed but my school registers as a charity so the money does go to improving the school but I shouldn't have generalized this for all private schools. Old textbooks are actually quite useful, especially in science for the new curriculum but I'm sure private schools will be able to afford buying new textbooks...

Are you sure you need a PGCE for secondary school education and not primary school because I'm not aware of too many teachers having is qualification and they seem to be fine teaching wise? What is SEN and most of the time these teachers are dealing with children who are academically very capable and aren't necessarily disruptive plus there are psychiatrists if that's what you mean?

That's not true at all- I sense you have a strong dislike for private schools. The students their are not sheltered, they do lots for the community and work with people from disadvantaged backgrounds aswell as local state schools so they aren't exactly sheltered, just because they're rich, it doesn't mean that they aren't exposed to 'real life'. Mine for example is located in a very rough area where crime is quite high so... There are just more opportunities to expand your horizons at private schools.

How is that sad- not everyone at a private school is insanely smart and the teachers can only do so much...
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Muttley79
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(Original post by timster32)
I have first hand xperience so not poorly informed but my school registers as a charity so the money does go to improving the school but I shouldn't have generalized this for all private schools. Old textbooks are actually quite useful, especially in science for the new curriculum but I'm sure private schools will be able to afford buying new textbooks...

Are you sure you need a PGCE for secondary school education and not primary school because I'm not aware of too many teachers having is qualification and they seem to be fine teaching wise? What is SEN and most of the time these teachers are dealing with children who are academically very capable and aren't necessarily disruptive plus there are psychiatrists if that's what you mean?

That's not true at all- I sense you have a strong dislike for private schools. The students their are not sheltered, they do lots for the community and work with people from disadvantaged backgrounds aswell as local state schools so they aren't exactly sheltered, just because they're rich, it doesn't mean that they aren't exposed to 'real life'. Mine for example is located in a very rough area where crime is quite high so... There are just more opportunities to expand your horizons at private schools.

How is that sad- not everyone at a private school is insanely smart and the teachers can only do so much...
I've taught at a Private school but left because it was very poor. Are you a teacher? Yes, secondary school teachers need to be qualified through a PGCE or by gaining QTS through another route.

Highly able students can have SEN e.g. they use a wheelchair, they are autistic, they have ADD, cerebral palsy, etc All Grammars have a SENCO that supports such students ...

Many, if not all, private school have charitable status - I've not seen any outreach in the schools I know about. It's good if yours does but dont assume all do.
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randyorton
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I've taught at a Private school but left because it was very poor. Are you a teacher? Yes, secondary school teachers need to be qualified through a PGCE or by gaining QTS through another route.

Highly able students can have SEN e.g. they use a wheelchair, they are autistic, they have ADD, cerebral palsy, etc All Grammars have a SENCO that supports such students ...

Many, if not all, private school have charitable status - I've not seen any outreach in the schools I know about. It's good if yours does but dont assume all do.
In what sense was it poor? No I'm not a teacher- why does that matter... If they had SEN, they probably wouldn't get into a private school, I'm not sure I've seen many that actually cater for rhem. Clearly you don't know much about these schools, have you worked at all of them or visited them, you can't just assume this because you probably don't know that much about the goings-on of these schools.
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Private school just means the students have to pay the money rather than the government paying the money. It is perfectly possible that they actually end up more poorly funded than some comprehensive schools at times - it's not the case that all of the tuition for a private school goes towards improving it compared to a state comprehensive, most will just be covering the basic costs.

Also, you seem misinformed about the application requirements for state schools. Although some do have competitive entrance exams (think the likes of Eton, etc.) most others just have basic entrance exams for sorting you into ability groups or ensuring that everyone meets basic grade requirements like being on track for a grade B/C, rather than selecting only those students likely to get A*/A grades. As someone mentioned above, if you've got money and are willing to pay there will be some non-selective private schools that will take you. Indeed I know of several classmates from my primary school who went to a local private secondary school because they were deemed to naughty to go to the local state school. So a private school doesn't necessarily mean loads of highly motivated, intelligent students. I would recommend looking into league tables and comparing figures on how much students grades improved by at the private/ grammar/ comprehensive schools you are considering to get a better idea of how good they actually are.

Grammar schools on the other hand are more competitive (e.g. generally selecting students likely to end up with A*/A/B grades, depending on the school) and will require an entrance exam. Personally, if you have a choice between a standard private school or a grammar school my instinct would say go for the grammar school - you'll get good teaching, be surrounded by fairly intelligent and motivated classmates, have properly qualified teachers, yet still have the "state school" tag when you apply to university (private school students may be expected to get slightly higher grades because they are seen as more privileged and able to pay for private tutoring etc.). From what I have seen from grammar schools near me, they rival the private schools (and indeed claim the most intelligent primary school students as their intake, leaving local private schools with lower grade students) and are totally free...
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randyorton
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(Original post by dragonkeeper999)
Private school just means the students have to pay the money rather than the government paying the money. It is perfectly possible that they actually end up more poorly funded than some comprehensive schools at times - it's not the case that all of the tuition for a private school goes towards improving it compared to a state comprehensive, most will just be covering the basic costs.

Also, you seem misinformed about the application requirements for state schools. Although some do have competitive entrance exams (think the likes of Eton, etc.) most others just have basic entrance exams for sorting you into ability groups or ensuring that everyone meets basic grade requirements like being on track for a grade B/C, rather than selecting only those students likely to get A*/A grades. As someone mentioned above, if you've got money and are willing to pay there will be some non-selective private schools that will take you. Indeed I know of several classmates from my primary school who went to a local private secondary school because they were deemed to naughty to go to the local state school. So a private school doesn't necessarily mean loads of highly motivated, intelligent students. I would recommend looking into league tables and comparing figures on how much students grades improved by at the private/ grammar/ comprehensive schools you are considering to get a better idea of how good they actually are.

Grammar schools on the other hand are more competitive (e.g. generally selecting students likely to end up with A*/A/B grades, depending on the school) and will require an entrance exam. Personally, if you have a choice between a standard private school or a grammar school my instinct would say go for the grammar school - you'll get good teaching, be surrounded by fairly intelligent and motivated classmates, have properly qualified teachers, yet still have the "state school" tag when you apply to university (private school students may be expected to get slightly higher grades because they are seen as more privileged and able to pay for private tutoring etc.). From what I have seen from grammar schools near me, they rival the private schools (and indeed claim the most intelligent primary school students as their intake, leaving local private schools with lower grade students) and are totally free...
Your right but then Eton don't have a competitive entrance exam then because you can do common entrance to get in. So why do universities not have this prejudice towards grammar schools since they are better academically?
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dragonkeeper999
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(Original post by timster32)
Your right but then Eton don't have a competitive entrance exam then because you can do common entrance to get in. So why do universities not have this prejudice towards grammar schools since they are better academically?
Pretty sure they'll only accept the very best students from the common entrance exam though - it's a relatively tough exam to distinguish between the candidates. Whereas many lower ranked private schools will accept anyone who can pay, if they have an entrance exam it's often just for show or to sort students into classes...

The theory is (unfortunately not exactly supported by research...) I think that grammar school pupils are 'naturally' more intelligent and have got their good grades based on their own merits (yes, helped a bit by the better teaching etc. at grammar schools, but they still had to be good to get in in the first place). In contrast, private school pupils come (supposedly...) from more wealthy families who can pay for private tutors etc., thus giving a less 'gifted' student better grades purely by throwing money at them. In reality though, in many cases students who would otherwise go to a private school end up having private tuition for the grammar school entrance exams and taking those places, rather than genuinely disadvantaged students attending the grammar school. There was an article about this relatively recently I think on the BBC about the debate around opening more grammar schools in the UK.

Another reason that universities often treat grammar schools pupils the same as comprehensive pupils and favour them over private school students is simply because the government categorises all students at grammar and comprehensive schools as "state school" students - therefore it looks good for a university's social mobility figures to say they have say 90%+ state school students, when actually many of those come from grammar schools and actually had a more privileged background than assumed by the "state school" tag.
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randyorton
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(Original post by dragonkeeper999)
Pretty sure they'll only accept the very best students from the common entrance exam though - it's a relatively tough exam to distinguish between the candidates. Whereas many lower ranked private schools will accept anyone who can pay, if they have an entrance exam it's often just for show or to sort students into classes...

The theory is (unfortunately not exactly supported by research...) I think that grammar school pupils are 'naturally' more intelligent and have got their good grades based on their own merits (yes, helped a bit by the better teaching etc. at grammar schools, but they still had to be good to get in in the first place). In contrast, private school pupils come (supposedly...) from more wealthy families who can pay for private tutors etc., thus giving a less 'gifted' student better grades purely by throwing money at them. In reality though, in many cases students who would otherwise go to a private school end up having private tuition for the grammar school entrance exams and taking those places, rather than genuinely disadvantaged students attending the grammar school. There was an article about this relatively recently I think on the BBC about the debate around opening more grammar schools in the UK.

Another reason that universities often treat grammar schools pupils the same as comprehensive pupils and favour them over private school students is simply because the government categorises all students at grammar and comprehensive schools as "state school" students - therefore it looks good for a university's social mobility figures to say they have say 90%+ state school students, when actually many of those come from grammar schools and actually had a more privileged background than assumed by the "state school" tag.
Ok you may be right, I'm really only aware of the top private schools,nut there seems to be a lot of low ranking private schools. For common entrance, the private schools have a cut off in terms of how low someone can get on average which is usually about 65%. And common entrance is incredibly easy, most grammar school students would pass with flying colors. Am I right in saying that there is no 13+ entry to grammar schools because commone entrance for private schools can't really be compared to the entrance exams for grammar schools.

I think thought that at the top private schools, which is really what I should have specified in the original post, the top students there are better than the top students at grammar schools- these are usually the ones on academic scholarships and I am aware that they are not usually the ones who are from wealthy families. I had the choice to go to a grammar school or to go to my current school and I chose my current school based on acadmics, a social aspect (mingling with Sheiks and oligarchs and what not) and the vast range of activities that you can take part in, meaning that academics isn't the sole focus when I'm at school because there is so much on offer.

And I hate when people use Eton as an example because they too have people who are only there because their daddies have a lot of money/or they are insanely posh and have a lot of land, it's the same with my school. Think more of Westminster and st Pauls when thinking of the really top private schools. I also disagree that grammar school students are more intelligent because so many of them get private tuition on top of going to school because there parents have extra cash since they don't pay for tuition fees and not to be disrespectful but the majority of grammar school students are Southern Asian (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc...) where the families are known to push their children at an early age and make them do extra reading and just push them more so that they can get into a grammar school. I think more of them are 'coached' to be intelligent instead of being naturally intelligent like their private school peers.
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(Original post by timster32)
Am I right in saying that there is no 13+ entry to grammar schools because commone entrance for private schools can't really be compared to the entrance exams for grammar schools.
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Most grammar schools do allow entry after the 11+ but only if a place opens up - so if a student leaves - as there are waiting lists for each year. They still have to do a lot of tests, usually just maths, English and some VR for ks3 but quite a few subjects at GCSE level.

I haven't been following the thread so forgive me if my input is irrelevant
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