Being in the EU holds back your country? The great Brexit myth.

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Reformed2010
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TRIGGER WARNING: Be careful Brexit voters, this evidence may cause harm.

Inspired by a comment from a Brexiter. I'd like to address this notion that being a member state of the EU 'holds your country back' from success. Now what defines a successful country will largely depend on the values we all hold. However, I'd argue if we surveyed the British people the vast majority would want to be free, democratic, healthy and wealthy. There is a reason why the NHS is surveyed as the most loved British institution by Britons after all.

EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
Economic Freedom index? higher than the UK.
Environmental Performance index? higher than the UK.
Press freedom index? higher than the UK.
Global gender equality? higher than the UK.
Human Development Index? higher than the UK.
Infant Mortality rate? lower than the UK.
Not to mention the UK's productivity (at an historic 30 year low), our national output per hour worked, is lower than France, Germany and even economically struggling Italy.

Clearly being in the EU does not hold your state back from being more democratic, more educated, more healthy, more equal and more free. What people who like to claim that being in the EU holds out country back, are really masking a more tragic reality. How **** our governments and our electorate have been in the last 20 years. If Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands can achieve better standard of living for their citizens than Britain. Maybe our governments, and the citizens as well, should grow a pair and face the evidence that compared to the other North Western European countries we have governed our state like ****.

None of this suggests the UK cannot leapfrog these EU countries in all these rankings but, the countries that do? like Australia and Canada have an electorate more willing to demand policies that will make this a reality. The Brexit politicians are neo-liberal, right-wing zealots who will strip away workers protection despite the evidence it helps boost workers productivity (like a living wage or restricting hours worked per week).
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It's****ingWOODY
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Is it just me, or has Brexit become the most dull ****ing topic of conversation in existence right now?
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Recont
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Decision has been made. That is it!
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Quady
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When we leave the EU will our democracy index go up or down?

Others may have higher scores within the EU but that doesn't mean this measure wouldn't improve by the act of leaving it.
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EC
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Seriously? People only realize this after the Brexit???? :congrats:
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cambio wechsel
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(Original post by Reformed2010)

Democracy Index?
An unscientific poll in my office (constituency: the unusually highly educated and almost all Bremainers) reveals that most cannot name any one of our region's MEP's, with no-one able to name more than two.
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Quady
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(Original post by cambio wechsel)
An unscientific poll in my office (constituency: the unusually highly educated and almost all Bremainers) reveals that most cannot name any one of our region's MEP's, with no-one able to name more than two.
I can only name my MP
I don't know the namp of my constitency or list MSPs or any of my MEPs - actually there is a UKIP one, Colburn?

I have difficulty enough working out which of my MSPs to refer anything to, let alone my MEPs... and as for my MP I don't know what they are for at a constiuency level.
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by Quady)
When we leave the EU will our democracy index go up or down?

Others may have higher scores within the EU but that doesn't mean this measure wouldn't improve by the act of leaving it.
This was not my point. At all.
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sleepysnooze
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
Economic Freedom index? higher than the UK.
Environmental Performance index? higher than the UK.
Press freedom index? higher than the UK.
Global gender equality? higher than the UK.
Human Development Index? higher than the UK.
Infant Mortality rate? lower than the UK.
Not to mention the UK's productivity (at an historic 30 year low), our national output per hour worked, is lower than France, Germany and even economically struggling Italy.
germany, sweden, finland, denmark, ireland and the netherlands don't rank higher because of their membership of the EU though. they rank higher despite it. correlation doesn't = causation. statistics 101 here. for instance, are you really, honestly, going to try and tell me that finland, for instance, becomes less democratic outside of the EU even though the EU NECESSARILY brings the citizen further away from institutions of power? this is as fallacious as saying that speaking english will make spain wealthier because english speaking countries are predominantly wealthier than spannish ones.
"c o r r e l a t i o n =/= c a u s a t i on". I'll say it again slower just so you can understand.
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sleepysnooze
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
This was not my point. At all.
yes it was - why else were you mentioning the factors of 1) democracy and 2) membership of the EU, for instance? what was your point? I'll quote you:

EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
answer me
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JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
TRIGGER WARNING: Be careful Brexit voters, this evidence may cause harm.

Inspired by a comment from a Brexiter. I'd like to address this notion that being a member state of the EU 'holds your country back' from success. Now what defines a successful country will largely depend on the values we all hold. However, I'd argue if we surveyed the British people the vast majority would want to be free, democratic, healthy and wealthy. There is a reason why the NHS is surveyed as the most loved British institution by Britons after all.

EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
Economic Freedom index? higher than the UK.
Environmental Performance index? higher than the UK.
Press freedom index? higher than the UK.
Global gender equality? higher than the UK.
Human Development Index? higher than the UK.
Infant Mortality rate? lower than the UK.
Not to mention the UK's productivity (at an historic 30 year low), our national output per hour worked, is lower than France, Germany and even economically struggling Italy.

Clearly being in the EU does not hold your state back from being more democratic, more educated, more healthy, more equal and more free. What people who like to claim that being in the EU holds out country back, are really masking a more tragic reality. How **** our governments and our electorate have been in the last 20 years. If Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands can achieve better standard of living for their citizens than Britain. Maybe our governments, and the citizens as well, should grow a pair and face the evidence that compared to the other North Western European countries we have governed our state like ****.

None of this suggests the UK cannot leapfrog these EU countries in all these rankings but, the countries that do? like Australia and Canada have an electorate more willing to demand policies that will make this a reality. The Brexit politicians are neo-liberal, right-wing zealots who will strip away workers protection despite the evidence it helps boost workers productivity (like a living wage or restricting hours worked per week).
Well you failed to mention three obvious things:

1) The supremacy of EU law prevents us from adopting legislation that contradicts EU treaty provisions, regulations or directives. Lacking sovereignty is by definition being held back.

2) Being a member of the EU customs Union prevents us from freely striking free trade agreements with non-EU countries. If that's not being held back that I don't know what is...

3) One of the so called four freedoms, free movement, prevents us from selecting European immigrants at will or controlling numbers of those who come from the EU. Another, rather salient way in which your precious organisation is holding this country back.
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Quady
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
This was not my point. At all.
Point poorly made.

I not you've so far declined to respond against the three regulations I'd like to see gone on the other thread too.

The EU has flaws, face it.
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Gladstone1885
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
TRIGGER WARNING: Be careful Brexit voters, this evidence may cause harm.

Inspired by a comment from a Brexiter. I'd like to address this notion that being a member state of the EU 'holds your country back' from success. Now what defines a successful country will largely depend on the values we all hold. However, I'd argue if we surveyed the British people the vast majority would want to be free, democratic, healthy and wealthy. There is a reason why the NHS is surveyed as the most loved British institution by Britons after all.

EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
Economic Freedom index? higher than the UK.
Environmental Performance index? higher than the UK.
Press freedom index? higher than the UK.
Global gender equality? higher than the UK.
Human Development Index? higher than the UK.
Infant Mortality rate? lower than the UK.
Not to mention the UK's productivity (at an historic 30 year low), our national output per hour worked, is lower than France, Germany and even economically struggling Italy.

Clearly being in the EU does not hold your state back from being more democratic, more educated, more healthy, more equal and more free. What people who like to claim that being in the EU holds out country back, are really masking a more tragic reality. How **** our governments and our electorate have been in the last 20 years. If Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands can achieve better standard of living for their citizens than Britain. Maybe our governments, and the citizens as well, should grow a pair and face the evidence that compared to the other North Western European countries we have governed our state like ****.

None of this suggests the UK cannot leapfrog these EU countries in all these rankings but, the countries that do? like Australia and Canada have an electorate more willing to demand policies that will make this a reality. The Brexit politicians are neo-liberal, right-wing zealots who will strip away workers protection despite the evidence it helps boost workers productivity (like a living wage or restricting hours worked per week).
The first thing you learn in psychology class is that correlation doesn't prove causation. It's a miraculous thing that that basic principle goes out the window when you're passionate about one side of an argument.


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username1799249
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(Original post by cambio wechsel)
An unscientific poll in my office (constituency: the unusually highly educated and almost all Bremainers) reveals that most cannot name any one of our region's MEP's, with no-one able to name more than two.
Can they name their councillor that represents them in their local town / parish or county council? And when the answer is no (which I imagine it is) what does that say about democracy, local, national or beyond?
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by Quady)
Point poorly made.

I not you've so far declined to respond against the three regulations I'd like to see gone on the other thread too.

The EU has flaws, face it.
(Original post by sleepysnooze)
germany, sweden, finland, denmark, ireland and the netherlands don't rank higher because of their membership of the EU though. they rank higher despite it. correlation doesn't = causation. statistics 101 here. for instance, are you really, honestly, going to try and tell me that finland, for instance, becomes less democratic outside of the EU even though the EU NECESSARILY brings the citizen further away from institutions of power? this is as fallacious as saying that speaking english will make spain wealthier because english speaking countries are predominantly wealthier than spannish ones.
"c o r r e l a t i o n =/= c a u s a t i on". I'll say it again slower just so you can understand.
(Original post by Gladstone1885)
The first thing you learn in psychology class is that correlation doesn't prove causation. It's a miraculous thing that that basic principle goes out the window when you're passionate about one side of an argument.


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You guys need to reread my comment and not read what you want the comment to state. My argument was, when people claim the EU holds back the UK they are the one's who are arguing that membership of the EU is the main factor that limits the standard of living for Britain. If that is the case, then the UK has achieved it's best standard of living with EU membership and when it leaves it will rise in the rankings above most of those countries. My counterargument is, if that is the case those same people need to explain why Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are ranked higher in all those indexes. As geographics and history do not look like to be the driving factors since on a global perspective we are all rather similar geographically, culturally and historically. For example culturally from a global perspective, it was West Northern European countries quickest to implement civil union and same-sex marriage.

All these countries face the same EU regulation, the same EU law, the same EU policies and yet the UK is behind them all in those rankings. The question is this, what are they doing differently to the UK? Because it's does not seem that EU membership is limiting their successes over us. How is Italy, facing the same so-called 'overbearing regulations from the EU' managing to have better productivity than British people?
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Elchapojr
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None of these statistics really mean anything, it doesn't represent what's really happening or how people feel about things. It can often be biased as well
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ckfeister
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
TRIGGER WARNING: Be careful Brexit voters, this evidence may cause harm.

Inspired by a comment from a Brexiter. I'd like to address this notion that being a member state of the EU 'holds your country back' from success. Now what defines a successful country will largely depend on the values we all hold. However, I'd argue if we surveyed the British people the vast majority would want to be free, democratic, healthy and wealthy. There is a reason why the NHS is surveyed as the most loved British institution by Britons after all.

EU countries: Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands are all members of the EU and their:
Democracy Index? higher than the UK.
Economic Freedom index? higher than the UK.
Environmental Performance index? higher than the UK.
Press freedom index? higher than the UK.
Global gender equality? higher than the UK.
Human Development Index? higher than the UK.
Infant Mortality rate? lower than the UK.
Not to mention the UK's productivity (at an historic 30 year low), our national output per hour worked, is lower than France, Germany and even economically struggling Italy.

Clearly being in the EU does not hold your state back from being more democratic, more educated, more healthy, more equal and more free. What people who like to claim that being in the EU holds out country back, are really masking a more tragic reality. How **** our governments and our electorate have been in the last 20 years. If Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Ireland and the Netherlands can achieve better standard of living for their citizens than Britain. Maybe our governments, and the citizens as well, should grow a pair and face the evidence that compared to the other North Western European countries we have governed our state like ****.

None of this suggests the UK cannot leapfrog these EU countries in all these rankings but, the countries that do? like Australia and Canada have an electorate more willing to demand policies that will make this a reality. The Brexit politicians are neo-liberal, right-wing zealots who will strip away workers protection despite the evidence it helps boost workers productivity (like a living wage or restricting hours worked per week).
Deep reccesion affected us greater than any of these countries. England that have been left out by globalisation minus South East and London is the reason why we left.
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3121
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Brexit is only the beginning. Soon it'll be Italeave, Frexit and Greparture. I made the first and last names myself! Zayn008©
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paul514
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(Original post by WoodyMKC)
Is it just me, or has Brexit become the most dull ****ing topic of conversation in existence right now?
No it was dull by July


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