The Ultimate England Thread

Original post by Colonel.

I think Iniesta + Silva > Young and Bale tbh.

As if it even had to be said :colonhash:

Never said first team, as in the mata/navas category.
I think spain are a bit overrated, they do have most of the best players, but i guarantee you, there are players that are in that category in england's squad, maybe not as in xavi's and iniesta's, but in the pedro/mata/villa category who are first team players. Spain are better than england no doubt player for player and as a team, but people make it out that spain are out of this world, look at argentina, their strike force and wingers are better than spains no doubt, look at our defence, it is as good as spains, spain just have a better midfield and a better goalie than most teams, and then they're now so much better than everyone else.
They are the best team in the world, but people tend to forget that spain are beatable.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 7101

Zerforax

21

Original post by jam277

Never said first team, as in the mata/navas category.
I think spain are a bit overrated, they do have most of the best players, but i guarantee you, there are players that are in that category in england's squad, maybe not as in xavi's and iniesta's, but in the pedro/mata/villa category who are first team players. Spain are better than england no doubt player for player and as a team, but people make it out that spain are out of this world, look at argentina, their strike force and wingers are better than spains no doubt, look at our defence, it is as good as spains, spain just have a better midfield and a better goalie than most teams, and then they're now so much better than everyone else.
They are the best team in the world, but people tend to forget that spain are beatable.

Mata who's looked like one of Chelsea's best players so far this season? And Pedro who's been on fine form in the Barcelona side?

Argentina look good on paper in terms of who they have. Spain not only look good on paper but over the past 3 or 4 years, have consistently delivered at the biggest tournaments and qualifying.

Reply 7102

Original post by Zerforax

Mata who's looked like one of Chelsea's best players so far this season? And Pedro who's been on fine form in the Barcelona side?

Argentina look good on paper in terms of who they have. Spain not only look good on paper but over the past 3 or 4 years, have consistently delivered at the biggest tournaments and qualifying.

I understand this, but, young has been united's second best player this season only behind rooney, bale didn't have a great start, but he's been pretty good since. I still think that spain are overated, it's like barcelona in 2010, everyone said they had the champions league again, they didn't win, the same way everyone said no one was near brazil's level before the 2006 world cup, but they got beat.

In that sense they're overated, the friendly doesn't count.

Reply 7103

Zerforax

21

Original post by jam277

I understand this, but, young has been united's second best player this season only behind rooney, bale didn't have a great start, but he's been pretty good since. I still think that spain are overated, it's like barcelona in 2010, everyone said they had the champions league again, they didn't win, the same way everyone said no one was near brazil's level before the 2006 world cup, but they got beat.

In that sense they're overated, the friendly doesn't count.

Well they have been favourites for the champions league for the last 3 years and won it twice which isn't exactly a bad record to have..

I don't think anyone thinks it's a foregone conclusion/a formality that Spain will win but they are still favourites for the tournament. That said, I don't think Germany or the Dutch are that far behind them and could beat them in a knock-out tournament.

Reply 7104

TRS-T

13

Everyone loves to praise the Spanish players and slate the English players.

Reply 7105

simstar88

8

Original post by jam277

Never said first team, as in the mata/navas category.
I think spain are a bit overrated, they do have most of the best players, but i guarantee you, there are players that are in that category in england's squad, maybe not as in xavi's and iniesta's, but in the pedro/mata/villa category who are first team players. Spain are better than england no doubt player for player and as a team, but people make it out that spain are out of this world, look at argentina, their strike force and wingers are better than spains no doubt, look at our defence, it is as good as spains, spain just have a better midfield and a better goalie than most teams, and then they're now so much better than everyone else.
They are the best team in the world, but people tend to forget that spain are beatable.

Well Said.

Reply 7106

Original post by Zerforax

Well they have been favourites for the champions league for the last 3 years and won it twice which isn't exactly a bad record to have..

I don't think anyone thinks it's a foregone conclusion/a formality that Spain will win but they are still favourites for the tournament. That said, I don't think Germany or the Dutch are that far behind them and could beat them in a knock-out tournament.

I think many people think that spain have it in the bag again.
I am a bitter chelsea fan, but tell me, did they really beat the competition easily, they shouldn't have beat chelsea that tiime and even though they did win, were they that much better, it was a 1-1 draw.
Secondly, did pepe deserve to get sent off in the first leg of the champions league, because that pretty much settled the tie, once he went off, messi scored a brace.
When you look at it that way, barca are far from invincible. I'm sure that if madrid had beat them instead of losing that 5-0, barca would not have won the league either, madrid were first until that point as well, barca stayed first. They are far from invincible, yes they are the best team of the 21st century that's for sure and are in the top 5 of all time, but they aren't that good, this isn't a football manager team that doesn't lose a match for 3 seasons, this is a real team that loses matches, anyway, look at brazil, I thought they were invincible in 2006, who won the world cup?

Anyway, I retain my stance, ashley young is quality and would be in the spain team, look at what he has done for man utd this season, destroying arsenal by himself and scoring a brace against them is a tough ask, even for a weakened arsenal team. I understand why we underrate our players for england, because they haven't delivered us trophies or got us near to the heights we could and should have been, but there is good talent in the squad, not as good as the spains/france/hollands/germany's, but we do have players that are at that level.

Anyway, my predictions (provided england don't end up in the group of death) is england quarters and if lucky maybe a semi but they're unlikely to win it. Spain to go out in semis, Germany or italy to win it.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 7107

Original post by jam277

anyway, look at brazil, I thought they were invincible in 2006, who won the world cup?

If you did then serves you right for foolishly falling for so much hype! I did feel they were beatable especially when their defence was a bit "meh" and Cafu was about 36 years old and way past it - nobody wanted to believe me before the tournament but hey, it is always a nice feeling being proved right isn't it? :biggrin:

After all, have so many people forgotten how much in 2000/2001ish people thought France were invincible largely because they were Euro and World Champs?

Reply 7108

Original post by robocop1andahalf

If you did then serves you right for foolishly falling for so much hype! I did feel they were beatable especially when their defence was a bit "meh" and Cafu was about 36 years old and way past it - nobody wanted to believe me before the tournament but hey, it is always a nice feeling being proved right isn't it? :biggrin:

After all, have so many people forgotten how much in 2000/2001ish people thought France were invincible largely because they were Euro and World Champs?

I should have put quote marks there for sarcasm, but yes, you're completely right, anyway, I think either germany, holland or italy will win it, probably germany vs italy/france final, because holland do not have the best of defences, do they still use heitinga as the first team CB, Van der wiel is good i guess, stekeelenberg is good, their midfield and striker(van persie because huntelaar and babel aren't near his level) are top class.
Their defence will let them down.

Italy, well they're basically england, but better, only thing england are better in is defence, midfield, the likes of marchisio, giovinco, aquilani, montolivo, de rossi are all under 30 and class, i don't know whether pirlo still plays. Then you have balotelli, pazzini, cassano and giuseppe rossi up front, all class players at the same level provided balotelli keeps up his form.
Buffon is still a quality keeper, criscito, chiellini, bonnuci/ranocchia and abate are a pretty good back four as well.

Portugal aren't in it, because they do not have a top class striker besides ronaldo who i think plays on the wing and a top class goalie.

France are basically the same as italy. They have a good defence, clichy/evra, abidal, rami(maybe kosc too if he shows his potential), sagna
Midfield is as good as italy's, m'villa, lass and alou, gourcouff, nasri, valbuena from the top of my head
Striker, remy and benzema, a season ago, i would have said both are average, now i'll say they are class players.

So it's either, italy, france or germany to win, if spain get either of these 3 in the semis, they will lose.

Reply 7109

Original post by jam277

France are basically the same as italy. They have a good defence, clichy/evra, abidal, rami(maybe kosc too if he shows his potential), sagna
Midfield is as good as italy's, m'villa, lass and alou, gourcouff, nasri, valbuena from the top of my head
Striker, remy and benzema, a season ago, i would have said both are average, now i'll say they are class players.

So it's either, italy, france or germany to win, if spain get either of these 3 in the semis, they will lose.

Definately do not rate France as potential finalists and Spain would still beat them. The jury is still out on Gourcuff in terms of the "new Zidane" comparisons he was getting, Lassana, Rami and Remy are mediocre to a tee, and M'Vila and Valbuena are OK, but there are far better players in thos epositions. Benzema is probably their only top-class striker at the minute. You forgot about Mexes in defence - he's ace as far as I am concerned.

I will go for Germany to beat Spain or Italy in the final.

England, France and Portugal to be the big flops.

Reply 7110

Original post by robocop1andahalf

Definately do not rate France as potential finalists and Spain would still beat them. The jury is still out on Gourcuff in terms of the "new Zidane" comparisons he was getting, Lassana, Rami and Remy are mediocre to a tee, and M'Vila and Valbuena are OK, but there are far better players in thos epositions. Benzema is probably their only top-class striker at the minute. You forgot about Mexes in defence - he's ace as far as I am concerned.

I will go for Germany to beat Spain or Italy in the final.

England, France and Portugal to be the big flops.

France have a ridiculously good record under laurent blanc, so I wouldn't count them out, Holland to flop too, robben and sneijder got them to the final of the world cup, not the team.

I remember lass marking messi in the second bit of the champions league semi final, he is not mediocre, he just has to compete with sahin and khedira for a first team spot, I thought remy was mediocre to a tee before, but he's been playing pretty well.

M'vila is 21 and will improve given the time, Valbuena, remember how him and nasri messed up england in the friendly last year, he is better than ok. What about jeremy menez and ribery?
Not too convinced on cabaye and ben arfa(if they get picked) because cabaye needs to show his consistancy over the season, while since the horror injury, i don't know whether ben arfa will come good either, but to be fair, i wouldn't rate them anywhere above adam johnson and milner at the moment.
But france have players. Wouldn't count them out.

Portugal, it's weird with them, besides the striker and the goalie, they are surprisingly good, we think that they're just ronaldo and nani, but we seem to forget about the midfield, veloso, moutinho, (haven't seen much of danny), meireles, a pretty good but underated midfield.

Defence, Pepe, coentrao, pereira and rolando is a pretty good defence too.

Semis to be france/england(if england don't get any of the other potential semi finalists in the quarters), germany, spain and italy.

Reply 7111

Jim-Jam

You say England are going to flop but we also have a really good record recently/under Capello.

If we get to the Semi's I'll be quite pleased!!

Reply 7112

Zerforax

21

I've decided this is the formation/players we should use.

.....Young....Rooney....Walcott
............Wilshere..Gerrard........
A.Cole.............................Johnson
.......Lescott..Jones..Kelly............
...................Hart.......................

Bench: Carson, Terry, Baines, Parker, Bent, Lampard, Downing

Seems mental but basically 3 CBs - Jones as the central CB can step foward into a DM role in the midfield.
Lescott has played LB before, Kelly plays RB at Liverpool (or use Smalling) so they can step into those roles if their wingback gets caught out of position.

Wingbacks have freedom to attack (both of whom are attacking) and will just cover their CBs when England don't have the ball. There to provide the width.

Wilshere and Gerrard control the play and spread the ball. Somewhat discipline needed to counter other teams.

Young and Walcott play as inside forwards and should switch. Walcott has played as a striker before so both need to be clinical with their finishing and Rooney doesnt score as many as he should at international level. All 3 interchange as a fluid front 3.

Rooney - most of the play will go through him but his job is to link with the 2 flanking him and also bring in Gerrard/Whilshere.

Jones can step foward into midfield to make it a 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard more forward. Any CB can be sacrificed for Parker for a pure DM. Can drop a CB or fullback to bring on a striker like Bent.

Formation is very flexible and can change. Makes the most use out of depth in CM/CB and we don't have any out and out wingers who are brilliant (Downing/Lennon are good but not world class) but can come on as an option so play more narrow up top with wingbacks giving all the width. Both wingbacks came come inside and also cross which is useful.

Reply 7113

Original post by jam277

Semis to be france/england(if england don't get any of the other potential semi finalists in the quarters), germany, spain and italy.

Sounds very much like the sheep-type comments of someone who knows very little about their football history who thinks the 4 semi-finalists will all be of the major nations. I guarantee there will be at least one (probably East European) dark horse making the semis, would be great if it was Poland or Ukraine or both. Everyone has been trying to justify England's chances by referring to boring Greece?

Reply 7114

Original post by robocop1andahalf

Sounds very much like the sheep-type comments of someone who knows very little about their football history who thinks the 4 semi-finalists will all be of the major nations. I guarantee there will be at least one (probably East European) dark horse making the semis, would be great if it was Poland or Ukraine or both. Everyone has been trying to justify England's chances by referring to boring Greece?

Not neccessarily, this really depends on the draw, provided there isn't a group of death, this most likely will happen, if there is a dark horse, i wouldn't know who it would be and i guarantee that it would be because of a less demanding draw i.e. uruguay getting to the semis, they had a pretty good team, but in reality they had an less tricky run.
Poland unlikely, ukraine have a slim chance. Czech republic have a good chance if they don't have a tough group Croatia/russia are probably the most likely dark horses that can get to the semis. Depends on the draw, if the draw is kind to croatia and russia, one of the two will get to the semis.

Reply 7115