Westworld, populism and Putin

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AlexanderHam
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An excellent article (by me, if I do say so myself... it was RTed by John McTernan and a Scottish government minister, and called a "great article" by Jo Maugham QC)

https://orderofthecoif.wordpress.com...ism-and-putin/

Fullofsurprises @anarchism101
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Fullofsurprises
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** wild applause **

I like the combination "Employment law, late medieval law and the Golden Age of Television". :lol:
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AlexanderHam
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
** wild applause **

I like the combination "Employment law, late medieval law and the Golden Age of Television". :lol:
Why thank you **bows theatrically**

These are my three prime interests, so I thought why not blog about them?

I took the header picture from this beautiful manuscript picture of the Court of King's Bench in 1460 (now the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court), I don't know why but I find it completely awesome (prisoners at the bottom, judges at the top; clerks and lawyers in the middle)

Image
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
Why thank you **bows theatrically**

These are my three prime interests, so I thought why not blog about them?

I took the header picture from this beautiful manuscript picture of the Court of King's Bench in 1460 (now the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court), I don't know why but I find it completely awesome (prisoners at the bottom, judges at the top; clerks and lawyers in the middle)
It's a funny picture - I wonder how many of them were political malcontents as opposed to n'erdowells.

I visited Canterbury with a friend recently and in the old ruined castle, there is a long list of all the trials of various people that took place there back in medieval times. You can see so clearly how the lawyers, the church and the barons worked together to keep political unrest down and ensure that their exploitative and oppressive rule continued.

One of the best moments was in the Peasant's Revolt, when the local leader of the uprising managed to get the bishop to destroy all the local tax records - doubtless causing decades of confusion and dismay amongst the clergy and aristocrats of the county.
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Cato the Elder
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It's a funny picture - I wonder how many of them were political malcontents as opposed to n'erdowells.

I visited Canterbury with a friend recently and in the old ruined castle, there is a long list of all the trials of various people that took place there back in medieval times. You can see so clearly how the lawyers, the church and the barons worked together to keep political unrest down and ensure that their exploitative and oppressive rule continued.

One of the best moments was in the Peasant's Revolt, when the local leader of the uprising managed to get the bishop to destroy all the local tax records - doubtless causing decades of confusion and dismay amongst the clergy and aristocrats of the county.
How I admire those evil "oppressive" medieval rulers.

Of course the truth is that they have done much to shape our history and our political culture for the better.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
Why thank you **bows theatrically**

These are my three prime interests, so I thought why not blog about them?

I took the header picture from this beautiful manuscript picture of the Court of King's Bench in 1460 (now the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court), I don't know why but I find it completely awesome (prisoners at the bottom, judges at the top; clerks and lawyers in the middle)

Image
We don't know the manuscript dates from exactly 1460; the composition of the court is stable from 1453 to 18th March 1460 and then doesn't have 5 judges again for a very long time. Fortescue is the judge in the centre (CJKB), Yelverton is on his right (our left), Markham is on Fortescue's left (our right), Bingham is on the extreme left as we look at the court and the dying Pole is to Markham's left (extreme right as we look). It is a very strong court.

Fortescue's writings In Praise of the Laws of England are still in printt:

"A King of England cannot, at his
pleasure, make any alterations in the laws of the land, for the nature of his goverment is not only regal, but political. Had it been merely regal, he would have a power to make what innovations and alterations he pleased, in the laws of the king- dom, impose tallages 2 and other hardships upon the people, whether they would or no, without their consent, which sort of government the Civil Laws point out, when they declare Quod piincipi placuit legis habet vigorern: but it is much otherwise with a king, whose government is political, because he can neither make any alteration, or change in the laws of the realm without the consent of the subject, nor burthen them, against their wills, with strange
impositions, so that a people governed by such laws
as are made by their own consent and approbation
enjoy their properties securely, and 'without the hazard
of being deprived of them, either by the king or any other"


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AlexanderHam
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
We don't know the manuscript dates from exactly 1460; the composition of the court is stable from 1453 to 18th March 1460 and then doesn't have 5 judges again for a very long time. Fortescue is the judge in the centre (CJKB), Yelverton is on his right (our left), Markham is on Fortescue's left (our right), Bingham is on the extreme left as we look at the court and the dying Pole is to Markham's left (extreme right as we look). It is a very strong court.
Thanks for the info, very interesting indeed. Have you spent any time on David Seipp's yearbook database? Pretty much every case in the yearbooks is in the database, with a lot of the material translated (between my schoolboy French and legal knowledge I'm able to parse a lot of the Law French).

You seem quite knowledgeable about this, is it an area of particular interest for you? I'm doing my final year research project this term and intending to do late medieval employment law. If you have some expertise on this subject I'd be very interested in talking to you as I have many questions and the more information the better (particularly in terms of sources)

Fortescue's writings In Praise of the Laws of England are still in print
Excellent quote, I found De Laudibus to be utterly fascinating (all the more so for his description of the serjeants accession ceremony and the perquisites of the court upon such an accession). I'm spending quite a bit of time at the moment reading up on late medieval law. I wrote a blogpost about misconduct in the medieval magistracy on my blog, if you're interested

https://orderofthecoif.wordpress.com...al-magistracy/
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AlexanderHam
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
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Btw, have you read Dudley's Tree of Commonwealth? Quite interesting if you enjoy late medieval and early modern English political and legal texts.

And I was wondering if you knew that Fortescue's elder brother Henry was the Chief Justice of the King's Bench of Ireland in the late 1420s? If Hal and Jack weren't too far in age it would mean Henry got the role fairly young, and it would be an absolutely fascinating position at that time.

In the late 1420s, Dublin only had around 10,000 people and the royal jurisdiction really only extended to the edge of the Pale, outside were the unreliable Hiberno-Norman lords and the Irish natives. I can imagine Dublin might almost have had a kind of Wild West feel about it (Deadwood-ish?)
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DanB1991
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
Btw, have you read Dudley's Tree of Commonwealth? Quite interesting if you enjoy late medieval and early modern English political and legal texts.

And I was wondering if you knew that Fortescue's elder brother Henry was the Chief Justice of the King's Bench of Ireland in the late 1420s? If Hal and Jack weren't too far in age it would mean Henry got the role fairly young, and it would be an absolutely fascinating position at that time.

In the late 1420s, Dublin only had around 10,000 people and the royal jurisdiction really only extended to the edge of the Pale, outside were the unreliable Hiberno-Norman lords and the Irish natives. I can imagine Dublin might almost have had a kind of Wild West feel about it (Deadwood-ish?)
I think describing Ireland as a wild westish frontier would be quite accurate until possibly even until the early/mid 1800's. Albeit lacking large scale emigration towards it's later years.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by DanB1991)
I think describing Ireland as a wild westish frontier would be quite accurate until possibly even until the early/mid 1800's. Albeit lacking large scale emigration towards it's later years.
Possibly provincial Ireland, but not Dublin.

There's nothing like Marsh's Library (1701) in Deadwood

Image

The building to the right.

And the Irish Parliament House is 70 years older than the US Capitol (although the iconic views of the portico are later).
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
Thanks for the info, very interesting indeed. Have you spent any time on David Seipp's yearbook database? Pretty much every case in the yearbooks is in the database, with a lot of the material translated (between my schoolboy French and legal knowledge I'm able to parse a lot of the Law French).

You seem quite knowledgeable about this, is it an area of particular interest for you? I'm doing my final year research project this term and intending to do late medieval employment law. If you have some expertise on this subject I'd be very interested in talking to you as I have many questions and the more information the better (particularly in terms of sources)



Excellent quote, I found De Laudibus to be utterly fascinating (all the more so for his description of the serjeants accession ceremony and the perquisites of the court upon such an accession). I'm spending quite a bit of time at the moment reading up on late medieval law. I wrote a blogpost about misconduct in the medieval magistracy on my blog, if you're interested

https://orderofthecoif.wordpress.com...al-magistracy/
I know of Siepp's Abridgement but I haven't used his database. My interests are quite eclectic. It is odd that scholars used to be very sneering about the Vulgate edition of the Yearbooks. Only the manuscripts or the Selden/Ames volumes were worth using. Then Siepp produces this massive index and funnily enough the Vulgate is perfectly usable!

Are you aware of the Anglo-American Legal Tradition? This is a website of images from the plea rolls etc of the medieval courts. In other words you can look at images of the actual documents the clerks at the table in the illustration of the KB in session were reading and writing!

The person who did a lot of work on justices' regulation of employment was Bertha (also known as B.H.) Putnam. Feed her name into COPAC and you will get a list of her writings.

Sillem: Some Sessions of the Peace in Lincolnshire 1360-1375 was written by one of her students I think.

Kelsall: Wage Regulation Under the Statute of Artificers

I am not aware of anyone who has worked in this area in the last 60 years, but Bob Hepple wrote A Bibliography of the Literature on British and Irish Labour Law
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by AlexanderHam)
I wrote a blogpost about misconduct in the medieval magistracy on my blog, if you're interested

https://orderofthecoif.wordpress.com...al-magistracy/
The big judicial scandal is 1289 when 4 of the 5 judges of the Common Pleas get the push for corruption. However Bacon in the 17th and Macclefield in the 18th get removed as LC for corruption.

To bring things up to date, there seems to be a problem in the small Nottinghamshire town of Southwell.

From last month

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nths-each.html

In October a new Chancellor (ecclesiastical judge) was sworn in at Southwell Minster

http://southwell.anglican.org/new-ch...rvice-minster/

They don't mention what happened to the previous one, Linda Box

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...w-firm-1-78389

https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/sol...098396.article
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DanB1991
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Possibly provincial Ireland, but not Dublin.

There's nothing like Marsh's Library (1701) in Deadwood

Image

The building to the right.

And the Irish Parliament House is 70 years older than the US Capitol (although the iconic views of the portico are later).
Well yeah obviously ignoring the much larger population centres, like dublin etc. But then you have to also consider it a Wild West of it's era, not a direct comparison. You had many fairly large government buildings and good infrastructure in many of the american territories prior to statehood.

Just look at the likes of Denver which were miner towns having State Buildings and Libraries like the above to shame from around 1860-1880 at the end of the 'wild west' period. While the frontier period arguably started in 1607, the 'wild west' period didn't really start until the 1780's without it being recognisable to our stereotypical image until 1850. It's generally agreed to have also ended around 1912. Denver itself was one of the few miner towns to actually survive and rise to cityhood.

This is Denver in 1898
Image

Tabor Grand Opera House 1880's
Image

By comparison that library in dublin could be considered as being built towards the end of of the irish equivalent which started around 1160. So they weren't really similar in terms of 'wild westerness' apart from possibly a brief overlap in the late 1700's or early 1800's, as you correctly stated while looking at provincial ireland.
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AlexanderHam
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(Original post by DanB1991)
Well yeah obviously ignoring the much larger population centres, like dublin etc. But then you have to also consider it a Wild West of it's era, not a direct comparison. You had many fairly large government buildings and good infrastructure in many of the american territories prior to statehood.

Just look at the likes of Denver which were miner towns having State Buildings and Libraries like the above to shame from around 1860-1880 at the end of the 'wild west' period. While the frontier period arguably started in 1607, the 'wild west' period didn't really start until the 1780's without it being recognisable to our stereotypical image until 1850. It's generally agreed to have also ended around 1912. Denver itself was one of the few miner towns to actually survive and rise to cityhood.
A most interesting post.

You're absolutely right, the comparison is not meant to be on all fours but when I thought of Dublin in the 1420s, I'm imagining a small-ish city (or a large town) with scary natives outside, you have various cultures meshing with one another. The native Irish are only allowed in one part of the town (like "Chink Alley" in Deadwood), and you also have many different cultures meshing (the English, the Hiberno-Normans, the Danes, and also seafarers from northern France and the low countries) just as they had many different immigrants into America in the 19th century (from Germany, Ireland, etc).

You also have a lot of carpetbaggers, as they did in the Wild West. And I think they had silver mining in the Pale (though I'm not 100% sure about this, I recall reading it but it was a long time ago).

It's just that sense of it being slightly wild and slightly civilised, the impression of it being quite a violent place (though I guess all medieval cities were). To me, it just seems absolutely fascinating I would absolutely love to be able to transport myself back there to 1420s Dublin and have a walk around town.

Great picture of Denver btw, I absolutely love 19th century American photography of cities and city life. Have you seen Ken Burn's civil war? You might appreciate this excerpt

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DanB1991
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Well even if you look further back, when the normans tried to colonise ireland, it was seen as a land of opportunity with an extremely dangerous native population and unforgiving environment. You can then go even further back and briton was a failed wild west of sorts seeing the roman/mediterranean style towns and cities never really survived nor was the majority of Britain ever pacified, even in roman occupied areas.

And btw yeah, I absolutely love Ken Burn's civil war! Great show with minimal bias concerning many of the civil wars issues (albeit not totally free of them).
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