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Israeli Soldier Elor Azaria Guilty of Manslaughter of Disarmed Palestinian Watch

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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    Palestine has no right to exist insofar as the vast majority of Palestinians support Islamism and terrorism. First the Palestinians must be re-educated to reject Islamism and terrorism and embrace Western, liberal values. Then perhaps they can have their own state.

    Unfortunately I doubt that'll ever happen.
    Supporting a certain ideology is not grounds to have your statehood revoked, what a stupid thing to say. Should Belgium cease to be a country for what they did to the Congolese people?
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    (Original post by l'etranger)
    I know. I'm not Muslim, nor was I arguing that Hamas should execute captured soldiers however Islamic law makes more sense than Western secular law, because of its inherent internal consistency.
    It only makes more sense for a believer. Moreover, while I don't have a problem with the idea of divinely-ordained laws per se, I don't think enshrining them in a poetic holy book makes much sense given how quickly they can become obsolete.

    They're not axioms, they're cultural relics derived from the Christian (namely mainline Protestant) tradition.
    The Christian tradition undoubtedly played a role in the formal establishment of the working principles, but the axioms which underpin the essence of humanistic philosophy as we know it today, existed well before Christianity came along. From Ancient Greece, to India - every civilisation has more-or-less prioritised (albeit through non-humanistic avenues in many legal-systems) human well-being and fairness.

    Given that our moral attitudes are a consequence of our evolutionary history, it's evident that the overwhelming majority of humans, with the exception of genuine psychopaths, have a basic sense of morality based on some very common virtues. Christian ethics is no exception.
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    (Original post by TheTruthTeller)
    "Super human and unfair". Illegal settlements condemned by the UN are unfair aww poor Israel.

    There is little point in arguing with you because you are not looking at the problem objectively. It is evident from the language you use that you do not have an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian cause to a state, and that your personal prejeduces have got the better of you. You use terms like "super human" and "unfair" like an angry child who does not want to follow the rules and believes they are above the rules. Even I, who am not the biggest fan of Israel can understand why it reacts and acts in certain situations, but luckily I am able to look at both sides objectively. You just see Israel's good and not it's bad. Your whole paragraph is just based with a bunch of emotional rubbish that I can use to justify the exact opposite of what you said. "decades-long terrorist campaign by a people that refuses to recognise its existence". I can equally say Palestinians are being opressed by decades of Israeli illegal millitary rule, who came occupied their land and kicked them out. See how it works? You need to either accept UN rule or stop labelling Israel as some sort of liberal democracy which upholds liberal and justice.
    Accept UN rule? Since when did the UN represent and uphold liberal values?

    This is an organisation which, in March of 2003, was going to put Saddam's Iraq on its Disarmament Committee whilst Gaddafi's Libya oversaw its Human Righs Committee. This is an organisation which allows the likes of Robert Mugabe and Colonel Gaddafi a platform to spew their anti-Western propaganda and hatred for liberal values.



    This is an organisation which made a Nazi war criminal its Secretary-General, that watched the genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia and Sierra Leone and now Syria and did nothing, and which is now ganging up on the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, Israel, aided and abetted by regimes which are filled with hatred for Jews, the West and Western liberal values.

    Read this:
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/united_nations.html

    Israel wouldn't have those "illegal" settlements in place if the Palestinians weren't hell-bent on being at war with them permanently and if the pre-war 1967 borders were defensible with modern weaponry. Legality and morality aren't the same things. If Israel, a free, liberal country, can be ganged up against at the UN for breaching so-called "international law" merely for acting in its own defence, yet a mass-murdering, Iranian-backed dictatorship in Syria is allowed to continue to have a seat at said organisation, then I don't think it's word can be taken at all seriously.

    Israel is morally superior to the United Nations and does not have to grovel to Third-World dictators, freedom-haters and Jew-killers for the right to defend itself from terrorism.
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    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    It only makes more sense for a believer. Moreover, while I don't have a problem with the idea of divinely-ordained laws per se, I don't think enshrining them in a poetic holy book makes much sense given how quickly they can become obsolete.
    The problem with international law is that it's based on nothing apart from the cultural values of those people making them. It's a complete Emperor has no clothes scenario, as soon as one person points out that it's a load of made up crap, it falls apart. At least with Islam it had internally solid foundations.



    (Original post by Dima-Blackburn)
    The Christian tradition undoubtedly played a role in the formal establishment of the working principles, but the axioms which underpin the essence of humanistic philosophy as we know it today, existed well before Christianity came along. From Ancient Greece, to India - every civilisation has more-or-less prioritised (albeit through non-humanistic avenues in many legal-systems) human well-being and fairness.


    Given that our moral attitudes are a consequence of our evolutionary history, it's evident that the overwhelming majority of humans, with the exception of genuine psychopaths, have a basic sense of morality based on some very common virtues. Christian ethics is no exception.
    Nonsense, when China rules the world the relevance of universal humanist morality will fade away. Chinese people have empathy, but they don't have this exclusively Western drive to make everyone else like them and they will pursue a foreign policy based on rational self-interest as opposed to arbitrary principles elevated to a position of absolutism.
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    (Original post by AIDS Skrillex)
    Supporting a certain ideology is not grounds to have your statehood revoked, what a stupid thing to say. Should Belgium cease to be a country for what they did to the Congolese people?
    False analogy. Last time I checked, most of the atrocities in the Congo were committed by Leopold of Belgium in his capacity as a private citizen.

    And yes, countries that are against liberal values should be treated as less legitimate than countries that uphold them.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    *video of Robert Mugabe expressing his homophobia*
    Nice video, please remind me when Israel legalised same sex marriage?
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    Nice video, please remind me when Israel legalised same sex marriage?
    Last time I checked gays are treated well in Israel, unlike in most Muslim countries.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    Last time I checked gays are treated well in Israel, unlike in most Muslim countries.
    That doesn't answer my question. Please try again.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    False analogy. Last time I checked, most of the atrocities in the Congo were committed by Leopold of Belgium in his capacity as a private citizen.

    And yes, countries that are against liberal values should be treated as less legitimate than countries that uphold them.
    His venture was private, that doesn't make his atrocities "private", he was still supported by Belgian troops

    What are liberal values? Liberal from a Western perspective? Do you propose we treat Russia and other Eastern European countries as less legitimate?
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    False analogy. Last time I checked, most of the atrocities in the Congo were committed by Leopold of Belgium in his capacity as a private citizen.

    And yes, countries that are against liberal values should be treated as less legitimate than countries that uphold them.

    "Countries that are against liberal values should be treated as less legitimate than countries that uphold them".
    A few posts ago I posed the question of whether countries that uphold liberal values and are democratic should be scrutinized to a higher extent than those who are not as they are more moral, to which you answered no. Surely you should change your answer to yes,since you believe such countries are more legitimate than non liberal value holding countries? If I were to represent a nation, I could "claim" to be a nation upholding liberal values, but surely the only way to be more legitimate is to be more scrutinized so that the term isn't simply applied anywhere?
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    (Original post by Palmyra)
    That doesn't answer my question. Please try again.
    Gay marriage is not legalised in Israel, though most Israelis would support such a move.

    In any case, that doesn't change the fact that gays have most of their essential rights in Israel, unlike in Gaza where gays are thrown off roofs and killed, or in the other Arab countries which surround it.

    Nice attempt at moral relativism. It won't work. Until recently Britain didn't have gay marriage. Does that mean Britain was oppressing gays?
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    How in the hell is that manslaughter? He deliberately shot him in the head.
    Particularly as he was clearly and visibly no longer a threat.

    The video shows that the IDF have a culture of regarding Palestinians as not fully human and I suspect there are probably many field executions like this that don't reach public attention.

    It's obvious that someone who has just carried out a vicious attack is a threat that needs to be dealt with, but soldiers are supposed to be professionals who keep a cool head in situations like this.
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    (Original post by AIDS Skrillex)
    His venture was private, that doesn't make his atrocities "private", he was still supported by Belgian troops

    What are liberal values? Liberal from a Western perspective? Do you propose we treat Russia and other Eastern European countries as less legitimate?
    Except they weren't being conducted by a state. Those Belgian troops were fighting for him in a private capacity, and I believe it wasn't just Belgian, but other Europeans who were in his pay. It was basically a mercenary force.

    And yes. The West is best.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    Except they weren't being conducted by a state. Those Belgian troops were fighting for him in a private capacity, and I believe it wasn't just Belgian, but other Europeans who were in his pay. It was basically a mercenary force.

    And yes. The West is best.
    For being a "liberal" you seem to be very intolerant of other countries' own cultures and traditions.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    Gay marriage is not legalised in Israel
    We got there in the end.

    In any case, that doesn't change the fact that gays have most of their essential rights in Israel, unlike in Gaza where gays are thrown off roofs and killed, or in the other Arab countries which surround it.
    Hmm yes, Jews have it so good in Israel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishai_Schlissel
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...305417,00.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_T...entre_shooting
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22810558
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    This is an organisation which made a Nazi war criminal its Secretary-General,
    TBF they didn't know about Waldheim until later on and Israel voted for him as Sec-Gen, so your argument doesn't quite hold up there.

    The UN is cursed by excessive respect for the statehood of member nations and that's why idiots/dictators/thugs like Mugabe and Gadaffi have had platforms in it - they aren't supported by the majority of members, but there are sufficient petty dictatorships around to create the space.

    Israel was a close ally of apartheid South Africa and it's regime throughout the worst years of that era, trading weapons and precious metals/diamonds and engaged in sanctions busting.

    Israel has also been happy in the past to collaborate with other dictatorships, sometimes at their own initiative and sometimes as a proxy for the US.
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    (Original post by Cato the Elder)
    Oh look! Someone with a murderous terrorist in their avatar.
    In bashar we trust
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Israel was a close ally of apartheid South Africa and it's regime throughout the worst years of that era, trading weapons and precious metals/diamonds and engaged in sanctions busting.
    Indeed, Israel's military support for Argentina even at the height of the Falklands War is pretty well-documented.

    British diplomats cited evidence that Israel had supplied the Argentine military junta with arms that were used against the Task Force during the campaign to liberate the islands.

    Israeli military exports before the war included the Skyhawk jets that would later be used to bomb British warships, killing dozens of soldiers, sailors and marines.

    Four British warships were sunk by bombs dropped from Skyhawks, including RFA Sir Galahad, a troop carrier that was set ablaze while anchored in Bluff Cove, killing 48 sailors and soldiers. Simon Weston, the badly burned veteran, was among the survivors. Another four ships were damaged by Skyhawks.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ands-war-reve/
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Dec...nds-War-465911
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    (Original post by TheTruthTeller)
    "Countries that are against liberal values should be treated as less legitimate than countries that uphold them".
    A few posts ago I posed the question of whether countries that uphold liberal values and are democratic should be scrutinized to a higher extent than those who are not as they are more moral, to which you answered no. Surely you should change your answer to yes,since you believe such countries are more legitimate than non liberal value holding countries? If I were to represent a nation, I could "claim" to be a nation upholding liberal values, but surely the only way to be more legitimate is to be more scrutinized so that the term isn't simply applied anywhere?
    Except, I rejected the implication of your question. You're implying that the criticism Israel gets is fair, which it is not. It is fighting an Islamofascist movement which wants it to be wiped off the face of the earth and it shows an immense amount of restraint in the face of such a threat.

    I agree in principle that they should be held to higher standards, but not so much so that they are condemned simply for protecting themselves from terroristic scumbags. In WWII the USA dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, killing thousands of Japanese civilians. Does that mean that they became the moral equals of Imperial Japan due to their intentional killing of civilians? No, because it was done only as a last resort in order to save lives, both American and Japanese, and put an end to a fascist regime. If killings like this one stop crazed Palestinians carrying out knife attacks, then it is a moral thing that should be applauded. This soldier is a hero for killing terroristic, Islamist swine. It's clear that you feel sorry for him, which I, and no one in his right mind, does. These people are not only Israel's enemies, they are my enemies because they wish to kill not only Israelis, but all infidels and people that support Israel, i.e. people like me. And I do not love my enemies, I hate them and want to kill them. Israel is doing a very good job of that.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    TBF they didn't know about Waldheim until later on and Israel voted for him as Sec-Gen, so your argument doesn't quite hold up there.

    The UN is cursed by excessive respect for the statehood of member nations and that's why idiots/dictators/thugs like Mugabe and Gadaffi have had platforms in it - they aren't supported by the majority of members, but there are sufficient petty dictatorships around to create the space.

    Israel was a close ally of apartheid South Africa and it's regime throughout the worst years of that era, trading weapons and precious metals/diamonds and engaged in sanctions busting.

    Israel has also been happy in the past to collaborate with other dictatorships, sometimes at their own initiative and sometimes as a proxy for the US.
    Liberal Israel, which respects humans rights etc also allegedly (highly likely) cooperated with South Africa in the 70s-80s in producing nuclear weapons. Not really something a liberal secular democracy should be taking part in ey? But perhaps we are being too harsh?
 
 
 
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