Merkel calls for Burka ban watch

astutehirstute · 05-01-2017 15:35

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.6a7be949c87a

There is one in France already.

Time to introduce one here?

The Epicurean · 05-01-2017 15:57

I don't think that we should. Women (and men if they want to), should be entitled to wear a burka, but they must reveal their faces for police if requested. I think businesses and such should also be able to, for security reasons, refuse entry to someone who has their face covered (not specifically the burqa). Ultimately though, I think it important that we allow people the freedom to choose what they wear.

tazarooni89 · 05-01-2017 16:21

In terms of actual practicality, I don't see any need to ban a piece of cloth.

These sorts of suggestions from politicians just seem to be ways to gain a few votes from those sectors of society that harbour anti-foreign, anti-immigration and anti-Islamic sentiment.

After that they need to come up with whatever pretexts for it they can find. (At first it was the idea of liberating all these oppressed women who are forced to wear the burqa against their will, but that one doesn't seem to have worked so well...)

Len Goodman · 05-01-2017 16:22

Finally, Merkel talks a bit of sense. It's way too late now, unfortunately - Germany has sunk too low to be rescued.

Zargabaath · 05-01-2017 16:25

Don't think I've seen a more misguided attempt at damage control in a long time.

BioStudentx · 05-01-2017 16:32

(Original post by tazarooni89)
In terms of actual practicality, I don't see any need to ban a piece of cloth.

These sorts of suggestions from politicians just seem to be ways to gain a few votes from those sectors of society that harbour anti-foreign, anti-immigration and anti-Islamic sentiment.

After that they need to come up with whatever pretexts for it they can find. (At first it was the idea of liberating all these oppressed women who are forced to wear the burqa against their will, but that one doesn't seem to have worked so well...)

You couldn't walk into a store wearing a balaclava, so you could make the same argument about the burka. Direct security threat. Even coming from a Muslim family myself, there is something about people walking around with their whole face and body covered in black cloth that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

One could make the argument that you can't walk around middle-eastern countries dressed in a bikini, so why should we bend our laws for them?

Palmyra · 05-01-2017 16:38

(Original post by BioStudentx)
One could make the argument that you can't walk around middle-eastern countries dressed in a bikini, so why should we bend our laws for them?

Because we are better than them, and that's why so many wannabe Islamists live here whilst crying about how corrupt our societies are, actions speak louder than words.

tazarooni89 · 05-01-2017 16:39

(Original post by BioStudentx)
You couldn't walk into a store wearing a balaclava, so you could make the same argument about the burka. Direct security threat.

People are already banned from covering their faces where security is of particular importance. This would be nothing new. When we talk about a burqa ban we're referring to a ban from all public places, not just specific areas where there might be heightened security concerns.

Even coming from a Muslim family myself, there is something about people walking around with their whole face and body covered in black cloth that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Well to be blunt, that's your problem lol... Anyone can feel uncomfortable about seeing anything.

One could make the argument that you can't walk around middle-eastern countries dressed in a bikini, so why should we bend our laws for them?

The people wearing burqas here are not "them", who made the laws about bikinis in middle eastern countries. And we would not be "bending our laws" at all - burqas have never been illegal here.

If we're supposed to be banning British women from wearing the Burqa in retaliation for a bikini ban that they had nothing to do with in some far away country, well... it's obvious why that might seem a bit odd.

Nottie · 05-01-2017 16:45

I don't mind burka or any sort of "cover up" clothing as long as those wearing it don't bash me for wearing skirts and tshirts.
Having said that, I heard that in Saudi Arabia and some other Muslim countries you can't wear western "normal clothes" so why should they be allowed wearing their normal clothes?

There's also security reason to ban it as you can hide many stuff underneathburkas

Sabertooth · 05-01-2017 16:46

Total desperation.

BioStudentx · 05-01-2017 16:57

(Original post by tazarooni89)
People are already banned from covering their faces where security is of particular importance. This would be nothing new. When we talk about a burqa ban we're referring to a ban from all public places, not just specific areas where there might be heightened security concerns.

Well to be blunt, that's your problem lol... Anyone can feel uncomfortable about seeing anything.

The people wearing burqas here are not "them", who made the laws about bikinis in middle eastern countries. And we would not be "bending our laws" at all - burqas have never been illegal here.

If we're supposed to be banning British women from wearing the Burqa in retaliation for a bikini ban that they had nothing to do with in some far away country, well... it's obvious why that might seem a bit odd.

I wouldn't say it's only my problem. In general, people find it uncomfortable when others cover their faces. Even in places where security isn't particularly important, walking around with a covered face is frowned upon. I'm sure many people would find it very uncomfortable walking past someone wearing all black and in a balaclava. I'm just applying this same logic to the burka. Just because it's supposedly part of a religion, it doesn't get immunity from this.

You can't get away with doing things just by crying "it's my religion". As you'd like to say, 'that's your problem'. It's a very slippery slope. Someone could argue walking around naked is part of their religion. Obviously, it's a complete contrast and not comparable but there has to be laws and boundaries in a country regardless of peoples superstitions.

Wōden · 05-01-2017 17:18

(Original post by The Epicurean)
I don't think that we should. Women (and men if they want to), should be entitled to wear a burka, but they must reveal their faces for police if requested. I think businesses and such should also be able to, for security reasons, refuse entry to someone who has their face covered (not specifically the burqa). Ultimately though, I think it important that we allow people the freedom to choose what they wear.

Nobody would tollerate people wearing Nazi uniforms in public, or Ku Klux Klan robes. Why should we tollerate people wearing items of clothing that are primarily associated with Wahabbism and similar extremist Islamic ideologies, that the majority of people find utterly reprehensible?

I should point out too that several majority muslim countries ban or at least heavily discorage the wearing of the burqa, niqab, full veils etc, because they have correctly realised that allowing it only serves to embolden and bolster the more extreme elements in Islam. Our soft touch leaders in the West have yet to figure that out.

Back on topic, Merkel is full of ****. This is nothing but posturing to get re-elected, she would never actually go through with the ban.

Dandaman1 · 05-01-2017 18:12

(Original post by The Epicurean)
I don't think that we should. Women (and men if they want to), should be entitled to wear a burka, but they must reveal their faces for police if requested. I think businesses and such should also be able to, for security reasons, refuse entry to someone who has their face covered (not specifically the burqa). Ultimately though, I think it important that we allow people the freedom to choose what they wear.

This. There's too much banning going on these days, especially in Europe. The government shouldn't have this much control over what we wear (or any at all, for that matter).

I don't like the burqa, and I wouldn't want somebody covering their face in my place of business, but out on the street what you wear should be your own damn choice.

The Epicurean · 05-01-2017 18:13

(Original post by BioStudentx)
One could make the argument that you can't walk around middle-eastern countries dressed in a bikini, so why should we bend our laws for them?

Because we shouldn't stoop down to their level. Why should we regress to the lowest common denominator? Saudi Arabia tell women what to wear, therefore we should also? I don't agree with that logic at all. If we also dictate what women can and can't wear, we are no better than Saudi Arabia and we would have no moral highground to stand on and criticise Saudi Arabia for their misogynistic laws.

string56 · 05-01-2017 18:23

(Original post by Palmyra)
Because we are better than them, and that's why so many wannabe Islamists live here whilst crying about how corrupt our societies are, actions speak louder than words.

Reminds me of this quote...

"If the Arabs (/Muslims) had the choice between two states, secular and religious, they would vote for the religious and flee to the secular." ~Ali Al-Wardi (Iraqi sociologist)

Spoiler:
Show

The Epicurean · 05-01-2017 18:29

(Original post by Wōden)
Nobody would tollerate people wearing Nazi uniforms in public, or Ku Klux Klan robes. Why should we tollerate people wearing items of clothing that are primarily associated with Wahabbism and similar extremist Islamic ideologies, that the majority of people find utterly reprehensible?

Prince Harry dressed up in Nazi uniform. He got criticised for it, but he is entitled to wear it in my opinion. Likewise, people who wear the burka often get criticised by newspapers like the Daily Mail. I believe a person should be free to dress up in KKK uniform, but they should expect to be refused entry to shops and stopped by police.

The ideology of Wahhabism intolerant. Why just ban the burqa, why not ban the whole ideology? Where do we draw the line exactly?

I should point out too that several majority muslim countries ban or at least heavily discorage the wearing of the burqa, niqab, full veils etc, because they have correctly realised that allowing it only serves to embolden and bolster the more extreme elements in Islam. Our soft touch leaders in the West have yet to figure that out.

In Tajikistan, a Muslim majority country, they banned beards as they percieved beards to be a sign of radicalism among Muslims. Should we also copy that? I don't really think we should be looking towards countries like Tajikistan for guidance if I'm honest. Is Islamism a problem? Yes. But should we take away peoples rights so as to tackle Isamism. I don't believe we should.

Fractite · 05-01-2017 18:33

I don't think she wants to, but she has to in order for her to keep her role as chancellor and to stop her being taken over by right-wingers.

Palmyra · 05-01-2017 18:48

(Original post by string56)
Reminds me of this quote...

"If the Arabs (/Muslims) had the choice between two states, secular and religious, they would vote for the religious and flee to the secular." ~Ali Al-Wardi (Iraqi sociologist)

That quote is great. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Asolare · 05-01-2017 19:09

Oh no, how awful, those emigrating to Germany will have to actual adapt to the culture there.
--
Though I do suspect this is an attempt from her to try and ensure she doesn't lose all of her party to the AfD (which is borderline impossible anyway based on how far behind they are in polls).

tazarooni89 · 05-01-2017 19:27

(Original post by BioStudentx)
I wouldn't say it's only my problem. In general, people find it uncomfortable when others cover their faces. Even in places where security isn't particularly important, walking around with a covered face is frowned upon. I'm sure many people would find it very uncomfortable walking past someone wearing all black and in a balaclava. I'm just applying this same logic to the burka. Just because it's supposedly part of a religion, it doesn't get immunity from this.

You can't get away with doing things just by crying "it's my religion". As you'd like to say, 'that's your problem'. It's a very slippery slope. Someone could argue walking around naked is part of their religion. Obviously, it's a complete contrast and not comparable but there has to be laws and boundaries in a country regardless of peoples superstitions.

Of course there have to be laws and boundaries, rather than a total free-for-all as to what you can wear. However I'm saying that, while it might be necessary to enforce certain dress codes, banning the burqa needn't be one of them.

Simply to say "it makes me feel uncomfortable" isn't really much of a reason to ban something, because anybody can say that about anything. So naturally we don't usually go by the principle that as soon as an item of clothing makes a certain number of people a little uncomfortable we ban it.

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