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    A fine bill- aye
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    Money is being wasted as opposed to looking after the homeless on our streets, those going hungry, and those struggling to make ends meet.

    Keep the money in the United Kingdom!
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Looking through the gini listings the first of the major oil producers are on par with the US and not much worse than most of Europe, ironically Venezuella has one of the highest gini coefficients in the world, and the top 10% earn on average 50 times that of the bottom 10%. digging deeper and trying to find even approximations where there is no data from the likes of the UN or OECD gives top end gini for the middle eastern oil producers only in the high 40s (by contrats South Africa is 63.1 and the worst in the world (excluding small states and autonomous regions), they still only have a 10:10 ratio in the low 30s and 20:20 in the high teens and this is their lorenz curve:



    And this still doesn't change the simple mathematics behind it, the only way to have high poverty and inequality but also a high gdp per capita would be to have a very small population, in its simplest form consider an island with only two people on it. One is in absolute poverty, the other earns $100k, half the population is in poverty but the average income (we shall for the sake of argument equate total income of the individuals to GDP) gives a very high GDP per capita. The more people we add in poverty the higher that $100k needs to go.
    The fact that this scenario is unlikely does not mean the bill should not take it into account. And now of what you've said suggests that GDP per capita is a worse measure than total GDP which is what is being suggested in the bill as it is.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I'd like to see trade rather than aid and the 0.7% of GDP target expanded to comprise public donations to foreign nations + Government spending combined rather than relate solely to Government spending, but I can live with this Bill as is so will probably vote Aye.

    Why is that our problem though? What you're effectively allowing for here is the rich in those country to get richer while we take care of their poor - surely that can't be acceptable?
    I am fully aware that it amounts to doing for some nations leaders what they might be able to but unwilling to do themselves. The operative word being 'might'. But seeing as not helping will not make things better...
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Money is being wasted as opposed to looking after the homeless on our streets, those going hungry, and those struggling to make ends meet.

    Keep the money in the United Kingdom!
    That is why I support this bill. It is also good to see a consensus of people agreeing that we need to cut foreign aid.
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    (Original post by TitanCream)
    That is why I support this bill. It is also good to see a consensus of people agreeing that we need to cut foreign aid.
    I don't think you'll find a concensus for less aid. Just more targeted aid which this perhaps does

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    (Original post by Aph)
    I don't think you'll find a concensus for less aid. Just more targeted aid which this perhaps does

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    Good point. Thanks for correcting hat.
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    wow, i actually agree with most of these. aye.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I am fully aware that it amounts to doing for some nations leaders what they might be able to but unwilling to do themselves. The operative word being 'might'. But seeing as not helping will not make things better...
    Then why should we bother if their own leaders can't be bothered?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    The fact that this scenario is unlikely does not mean the bill should not take it into account. And now of what you've said suggests that GDP per capita is a worse measure than total GDP which is what is being suggested in the bill as it is.
    Per capita is much better than nominal. It's also worth noting that relative poverty is only a good metric for the real problem up to a point, and really it's easily made an artificial political problem.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Then why should we bother if their own leaders can't be bothered?
    What about being the bigger person or doing the right thing?

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    (Original post by Aph)
    What about being the bigger person or doing the right thing?

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    That doesn't really answer my question though does it, they're just meaningless moral platitudes. In fact, you could take Adam's point about those suffering in this country and argue that why should we expect foreign leaders to even bother helping their poor when we don't help the poorest in our society. As Adam quite rightly says:

    (Original post by adam9317)
    Money is being wasted as opposed to looking after the homeless on our streets, those going hungry, and those struggling to make ends meet.
    Surely we should set the example here and actually help our poor and needy and get the leaders of poorer nations to actually dig into their own pockets to help their people?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    That doesn't really answer my question though does it, they're just meaningless moral platitudes. In fact, you could take Adam's point about those suffering in this country and argue that why should we expect foreign leaders to even bother helping their poor when we don't help the poorest in our society. As Adam quite rightly says:



    Surely we should set the example here and actually help our poor and needy and get the leaders of poorer nations to actually dig into their own pockets to help their people?
    That would be ideal my friend, some nations out there, their citizens have some of the worst standards of living around, yet their government are rich!
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    That doesn't really answer my question though does it, they're just meaningless moral platitudes. In fact, you could take Adam's point about those suffering in this country and argue that why should we expect foreign leaders to even bother helping their poor when we don't help the poorest in our society. As Adam quite rightly says:



    Surely we should set the example here and actually help our poor and needy and get the leaders of poorer nations to actually dig into their own pockets to help their people?
    By investing in other countries we improve their economies and raise their poorest who they buy our goods and make jobs here. Foreign aid is an investment in ourselves

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    I largely agree with this bill.

    Aye
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    (Original post by Aph)
    By investing in other countries we improve their economies and raise their poorest who they buy our goods and make jobs here. Foreign aid is an investment in ourselves

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    Alternatively, we engage in trade rather than aid and actually build the economies up that way and tell me, how is investing in Ethiopia's answer to the Spice Girls, for example, actually helping make jobs here? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...pite-previous/)
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Then why should we bother if their own leaders can't be bothered?
    Uhm, because we're better than they are?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Uhm, because we're better than they are?
    That doesn't mean that we should step in, it's a meaningless platitude - how on earth are we going to encourage poorer nations to actually do something about their futures and stand on their own two feet if we're propping them up all the time.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    That doesn't mean that we should step in, it's a meaningless platitude - how on earth are we going to encourage poorer nations to actually do something about their futures and stand on their own two feet if we're propping them up all the time.
    Nations are not individuals. Something a liberal should appreciate. You can't 'incentivise' a nation the way you might do a person. And just because something is said often does not make it meaningless.
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    I am a retired former member of the House, for those unaware. I have supported an overseas aid charity by helping to organise collections and annual appeals for a few years.

    The misuse of overseas aid is a disgrace where it happens, and the recent highlighting of it by one newspaper has brought this into focus, even though the motives of the paper I suspect were to reduce the budget and engender xenophobia. This notwithstanding, the House should consider reform to the use of overseas aid.

    There are parts of the Bill which I disagree with and suggest are changed for a second reading.

    - Military aid should come from the defence budget or perhaps from the Foreign Office.
    - There should be the ability for the government to match-fund charitable donations as has been the case with some humanitarian crises, which is not explicit in this Bill
    - The requirement for the Government to buy the equipment or other goods that are donated may not be the best way of ensuring the money achieves the aim of helping as many people as possible. Government procurement can be expensive and this locally on the ground may know what is best.
    - Charities that are multi-national may the best means of delivering aid, for example UNICEF or the International Red Cross
    - the practicality of seizing assets may be limited in some cases unless you do so from any investment made by the nationals in the UK.
    - Aid following disasters can include the means to grow food, crops, plant trees and the list suggested is too restrictive. Emergency medicine may not cover all medical needs.
 
 
 
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