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Christianity, like many religions, is fantasy, like Alice in Wonderland Watch

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    (Original post by jape)
    They don't all believe that. Many do, and those people are wrong,
    I would be surprised to find any Christian who does not believe that god had a hand in the creation of the universe, or that Jesus was god in human form. Obviously, they are wrong, but they don't believe that they are wrong.

    but there's a significant number of Christians who view all of the old testament stuff allegorically. And if you do that, there are plenty of valuable things to take away from the texts.
    Like what?

    Not strictly true. Again, a flood covering the entire globe didn't happen. Poetic license. But cataclysmic floods have happened during the lifetime of humans, as evidenced by the relatively young signs of flooding in the now-empty Washington River Basin.
    Yes, but devastating but localised floods are not what is described in the Bible or Quran. The Noah story specifically requires the extermination of all life on the planet, by god's hand, other than the occupants of the Ark. Without this, the story is meaningless.
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    (Original post by HenryHill)
    I would be surprised to find any Christian who does not believe that god had a hand in the creation of the universe, or that Jesus was god in human form. Obviously, they are wrong, but they don't believe that they are wrong.
    Things like the Garden of Eden is what I was referring to. Eden is such an obvious metaphor that the number of people who believe it literally existed as a physical place is slim-to-none and only thinning further down as time moves forward.

    Like what?
    See below.

    Yes, but devastating but localised floods are not what is described in the Bible or Quran. The Noah story specifically requires the extermination of all life on the planet, by god's hand, other than the occupants of the Ark. Without this, the story is meaningless.
    Not at all. In fact Noah's flood was brought on as divine punishment for specific trespasses by mankind. As with the second most-famous flood myth, Plato's description of Atlantis, the antediluvian world was destroyed for arrogance and cruelty. I believe Plato's line was that antediluvian culture had stopped wearing its prosperity with modesty, or words to that effect. So we see, from the beginning of Judeo-Christian mythology (and prior pagan mythology in many cases) the impulse to moderate oneself, to be kind and to be decent. There's lots of stuff in ancient mythology like that. I basically regard anything from Jesus through the Qu'uran, through Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard, as useless because it's for all intents and purposes modern civilisation.

    But of course, you can only engage with the metaphor of ancient religion if you accept it for metaphor and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because Noah's flood didn't literally cover every peak and trough of the earth, and it wasn't literally sent by God and he didn't literally build a big boat to store animals on, doesn't mean the text is useless. Nobody believes that Noah literally had an ark with all the animals on it, by the way.
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    (Original post by Quiet Benin)
    I have been agnostic for a few months now. I just don't understand why people believe in religion - the route of all evil. It's 2017, isn't it time to stop praying to God/Allah/Buddha and start finding ourselves? Why the **** you still believe in it?

    My parents can't accept that i'm no longer a christian and neither can a church in my uni city is accepting this well. The Pastor who is the same age as me have refused to co-operate with me and still bothers me hence i still have an unhealthy habit to go to church. I found out God is or not real after doing strong prayers and realisation after smoking strong cannabis. Bare in mind i used to see myself as a strong christian before i lost it and realise it is all fake

    The truth (and i'm not even right wing) people should keep religion to themselves. I have had it. God does not exist or he exist but doesn't give a ****. If he actually did exist, my mental health would have vanished a decade ago and the world would be a better place. Just think about it. Just had it with Christians especially with these 'black' Christians (I'm Black too) - they piss me off the most with their 'praise and worship' and 'crazy deliverance'. As someone who believes in spiritualism, a deliverance involves TALKING WITH DEMONS AND CASTING THEM OUT, Not falling down and making noises.

    Imagine one christian girl in uni (who i still have feelings for) indirectly insulating that i'm autistic because i'm introverted and going to a church will solve your weak social skills :mad::mad::mad:. She's meant to be a christian showing me love but no, she shows me passive aggressiveness because i'm shy.

    And people please how can i come out with the habit of not going to church (i know a weird question). I have no interest yet i know i will go at least once a week.
    I would like to point out that Buddha is neither a god, nor do people worship him. I think it's good for agnostics and atheists to explore the philosophical side of Buddhism.

    One of the Buddhist teachings Ive read says like life is like crossing a river, there will be many boats and many bridges, you can be free to choose the one you want. I find that charming, which separates Buddhism from other religions for me :-)

    Edit: To elaborate, that river metaphor was Buddhism speaking of religions specifically, a religion that didnt mind if you believed something different
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    (Original post by Supermonkey92)
    Didnt you say they were demonstrably false?

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    He did.

    (Original post by HenryHill)
    Ah, the old "If you assume a different meaning to what the words actually say..." argument.

    The "question begging" must be done by the person asserting that physically impossible things actually happened. Dead people do not come back to life. Human conception is not possible without both egg and sperm. For them to be possible requires a "miracle", and it is such an event that is being examined, so it is question begging to assert that miracles are possible when examining the possibility of miracles.

    I didn't claim that every element of Christianity was present in earlier beliefs, just that it contains elements of earlier beliefs, but as far as Jesus as god, there are countless examples of gods presenting as human.
    I mean if you read like a 12 year old . . . .

    "What do you mean Jesus isn't a gate? That's what the words actually say in the bible!" So yes, your argument only works by making certain assumptions. They just happen to be assumptions nobody takes seriously.

    Dead people dont come back to life *naturally*. Conception is without sperm and egg cannot happen *naturally*. No one disputes this.

    It wont do to assert that miracles arent possible once you have already claimed that it is *demonstrably* false that a miracle has occured. You haven't demonstrated that they arent possible and insofar as you simply assume they are not possible, then you beg the question by asserting it can be demonstrated a miracle was false.

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    (Original post by HenryHill)
    I said...
    "Every supernatural claim made about Christianity, that can be judged on evidence, has been shown to be false."
    You also gave a list which you claimed were *demonstrably* false
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    (Original post by HenryHill)
    But that's not what is under discussion here.
    Remember that Christians, despite all the claims of metaphor and allegory, actually believe that a supernatural being created the universe from nothing, and that he came to earth in human form as a means of saving us from eternal torment at the hands of himself.
    That is clearly fantasy, and no amount of equivocation over the meaning of passages of the Bible will change that.

    Of course it's not accurate! It is physically impossible and the geological record shows it never happened. And yet, the Bible is very specific about it. As I said, if the extraordinary claims of Christianity are universally agreed by Christians to be false, what is the point of it?
    Also worth bearing in mind that the story of Noah is in the Quran as well, and that cannot be claimed as metaphor or allegory. It is the actual words of god, as dictated to Muhammad and unchanged for 1400 years.
    Except you equivocate what Christians consider to be mere allegory with other things they take to be more literally true.
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    (Original post by Whitewell)
    You also gave a list which you claimed were *demonstrably* false
    Yes, on the basis of evidence.
    You can't say "Oh, it could happen if it was magic". That's cheating.
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    (Original post by HenryHill)
    Yes, on the basis of evidence.
    You can't say "Oh, it could happen if it was magic". That's cheating.
    The claims are miracles. Either you can show that the specific claims are most likely not miracles or that miracles are not possible. If not then they cannot be demonstrably wrong.

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    (Original post by jape)
    It's a metaphor. How can you read about the "tree of knowledge" and not instantly file that away under poetic license? It's the most obvious thing in the world that Genesis and the Eden stuff is allegory. The Jesus bits are nonsense, I think the general rule is the newer your religion the crappier it is, but the super-early mythology is clearly metaphor.

    Also, the flood may be more plausible than we thought previously. We underestimated how long anatomically modern humans have been around by a long time until very recently, to the point where we can now be 100% sure that we lived through the Younger Dryas period of intense environmental catastrophe. It's perfectly realistic that there was a huge flood which just wiped huge swathes of the world population out of the picture (not an entire world flood, but again, poetic license).
    What I don't understand is how Christians who believe that Genesis is a metaphor reconcile this with Original Sin. For the latter to be real, the events in the Garden of Eden must have literally happened: man disobeyed God and thus became tainted. If these events didn't happen and humans have been inherently sinful from the beginning then it must be God who directly gave them that nature. And if it was indeed God then the concept of incarnating for the purpose of sacrificing himself to save humanity's souls, collapses.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What I don't understand is how Christians who believe that Gensks is a metaphor reconcile this with Originals Sin. For the latter to be real, the events in the Garden of Eden must have literally happened: man disobeyed God and thus became tainted. If these events didn't happen and humans have been inherently sinful from the beginning then it must be God who directly gave them that nature. And if it was indeed God then the concept of incarnating for the purpose of sacrificing himself to save humanity's souls, collapses.
    That I don't know how to answer. As someone who doesn't believe in God, I'm inclined to say that the concept of original sin is just a way to cajole our 6,000 year ancestors into behaving civilly. But that implies the religion is man-made and thus not divine. So I have no idea how a believer would explain it.
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    It's not about religion, it's about God . . . religion will do absolutely nothing. Religion/religiosity, like all other twisted versions of His perfect gifts, will not lead you to Him . . . and it's by getting to know Him that you learn how our deepest desires were designed to be fulfilled. Imagine knowing that the most beautiful and perfect and amazing things you could ever imagine are real, far more real than anything you've ever done or known or experienced, that there's a joy beyond understanding and a peace beyond comprehension to be had and to be held, that there's healing and wholeness and perfect love and compassion, all there, all waiting for you, and all you have to do ask Him for it. That beyond everything, there's burning, thrilling, beautiful, passionate LIFE to be had. Just imagine. And it's so much better and so much more real than we could ever think.
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    (Original post by HenryHill)
    That is not the event that is described by, or required by, the Bible.

    Again, not the same. Artificial insemination requires the use of human sperm. There was none involved in the virgin birth.

    No they don't. An NDE is not death.
    And if it was mistaken identity or not actually dead, then the Bibe is wrong!

    Of course they don't. You'd have to be insane to believe it as literal truth. But if Christians don't believe that the Bible is true (especially regarding Jesus' birth & death), then what is the point? Most religious belief is no more than a cultural/social affectation that does not stand up to scrutiny.
    But even by that standard most generally agreed historical events are false. Most of written history is full of contradictions, misunderstandings and superstitions being the basis of 'fact'.

    The only difference is A) The age of the bible and B) The fact it's basis was formed from pre-literate people. Just look at the new testament, it wasn't written (and knowling so by the church even catholics) until hundreds of years after the described events.

    You're also suggestion those who wrote such pieces had the same scientific understanding that we had today.

    The virgin birth for example was most likely a mixture of adopting other religious story telling traditions and a desperate woman knocked up out of wedlock. It doesn't mean the stories are false per se, more exaggerated.
 
 
 
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