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Swiss win EU case - Muslim girls must swim with boys Watch

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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    That's not true but believe what you want. The ECHR agrees with me as well .

    And supporting not being able to demand gender segregation is not intolerance - it's actually a liberal view.

    I'm the liberal in this. I'm against gender segregation, discrimination against homosexuals, discrimination against women etc - not my fault Muslims tend (which can be shown by laws in Muslim countries) to be in favour of all of those.

    However - if a Muslim country decided to enforce an alcohol ban for example and banned Catholics from taking communion in their country, I would support that. If the Catholics don't like it, they can leave said Muslim country.
    Youre the liberal

    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    Funniest joke ive heard all year
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    Youre the liberal

    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    Funniest joke ive heard all year
    The last time I checked being against gender segregation, against discrimination towards homosexuals and women is liberal.

    Please enlighten me to how that isn't liberal.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    t if the request can be met without any harm being caused then why not do it
    In this case, harm would have been caused as the girls would not have learned to swim with their fellow pupils, on the specious grounds of their parents' superstitious beliefs.
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    The last time I checked being against gender segregation, against discrimination towards homosexuals and women is liberal.

    Please enlighten me to how that isn't liberal.
    You have a few liberal views (which I and many other muslims I know of have) but overall youre not liberal. Stop lying to yourself. Loool im actually dying, cant stop laughing
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    I never said it should be unrestrained, all Im saying is is that if the request can be met without any harm being caused then why not do it to seem like a more tolerant society. It makes me really sad to see this much intolerance especially as a person that goes out of my way to help others whenever I witness injustice and now it seems like no ones willing to back us up. The poem 'not my business' comes to mind when I think of the current situation regarding muslims
    Harm would be being done, namely to Switzerland's enlightened, liberal values as well as to the ability of the Muslim girls and boys to learn how to properly engage with each other in all situations. Harm isn't just physical and their decision isn't intolerant. If a tolerant society were to be tolerant of everything then it would descend into anarchy, so just like freedom, tolerance has its limits.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    You have a few liberal views (which I and many other muslims I know of have) but overall youre not liberal. Stop lying to yourself. Loool im actually dying, cant stop laughing

    I said in this, I'm the liberal - and the Muslim parents aren't as they support gender segregation and you do too I assume.

    Overall I'm not but when it comes to the things mentioned and and a few more, I am.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Harm would be being done, namely to Switzerland's enlightened, liberal values as well as to the ability of the Muslim girls and boys to learn how to properly engage with each other in all situations. Harm isn't just physical and their decision isn't intolerant. If a tolerant society were to be tolerant of everything then it would descend into anarchy, so just like freedom, tolerance has its limits.
    Yeah muslim girls and boys need to learn how to engage with the opposite gender in the swimming pool coz theyre in that situation quite often right?
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    I never said it should be unrestrained, all Im saying is is that if the request can be met without any harm being caused then why not do it to seem like a more tolerant society. It makes me really sad to see this much intolerance especially as a person that goes out of my way to help others whenever I witness injustice and now it seems like no ones willing to back us up. The poem 'not my business' comes to mind when I think of the current situation regarding muslims
    It does long-term harm to a society for one particular religious community to have state accomodation in defying the normal rules of that society by segregating people by sex. Does that count, or is the only kind of harm you care about mean words on twitter?
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    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    I said in this, I'm the liberal - and the Muslim parents aren't as they support gender segregation and you do too I assume.

    Overall I'm not but when it comes to the things mentioned and and a few more, I am.
    No I dont support gender segregation but I support the right for people to practise their religion as long as its a reasonable request. Im much more of a liberal than you.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    Yeah muslim girls and boys need to learn how to engage with the opposite gender in the swimming pool coz theyre in that situation quite often right?
    Clearly, those who receive the abusive upbringing that these parents are trying to provide will be segregated in their private life and expected to stay apart as adults. They will be doomed to live unintegrated and outside western society.

    However, those who receive a decent western education (which includes unsegregated swimming lessons in mixed schools) and are shown that society generally holds different values to those of their parents have a better chance of escaping this superstitious nonsense and living a normal western life, for which they deserve preparation.
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    (Original post by jape)
    It does long-term harm to a society for one particular religious community to have state accomodation in defying the normal rules of that society by segregating people by sex. Does that count, or is the only kind of harm you care about mean words on twitter?
    As Ive mentioned countless times. Its extremely simple to resolve this issue. Let the kids sit aside while the other kids swim and then make the parents pay for and arrange swimming classes for their kids that are single gendered. Mean comments on twitter LOL. Ive seen much more horrible things than that unfortunately.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    Yeah muslim girls and boys need to learn how to engage with the opposite gender in the swimming pool coz theyre in that situation quite often right?
    It's not necessarily about the actual swimming pool per se, it's more about learning to interact normally and healthily in situations with the opposite sex where the body isn't completely covered. That way the children will be able to function normally as adults when in swimming pools, beaches etc.

    How can you not see the absolute absurdity and ridiculousness of parents wanting to segregate prepubescent children because of fears that there'll be sexual contact/occurrences?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Clearly, those who receive the abusive upbringing that these parents are trying to provide will be segregated in their private life and expected to stay apart as adults. They will be doomed to live unintegrated and outside western society.

    However, those who receive a decent western education (which includes unsegregated swimming lessons in mixed schools) and are shown that society generally holds different values to those of their parents have a better chance of escaping this superstitious nonsense and living a normal western life, for which they deserve preparation.
    What are you talking about? We dont go to work or uni in swimsuits do we
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    No I dont support gender segregation but I support the right for people to practise their religion as long as its a reasonable request. Im much more of a liberal than you.

    You can't have your cake and eat it.

    You've basically said "I don't support gender segregation but....." :facepalm:

    What wouldn't be a reasonable request btw ? In your view?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    It's not necessarily about the actual swimming pool per se, it's more about learning to interact normally and healthily in situations with the opposite sex where the body isn't completely covered. That way the children will be able to function normally as adults when in swimming pools, beaches etc.

    How can you not see the absolute absurdity and ridiculousness of parents wanting to segregate prepubescent children because of fears that there'll be sexual contact/occurrences?
    no I dont agree with it but its their belief and respect other peoples beliefs and their right to have them. Ive also argued this passionately when some of my muslim friends have said that people shouldnt be allowed to draw the prophet of islam. People should be allowed to draw whatever they like. Just because I support jews it doesnt make me a jew. Going out half nude isnt a part of everyday life that example is ridiculous
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    No I dont support gender segregation but I support the right for people to practise their religion as long as its a reasonable request. Im much more of a liberal than you.
    Precisely, it has been considered an unreasonable request.

    Bear in mind that the school had allowed the girls to wear burkinis, but the parents even refused that. Do you think they were reasonable? I think that the school was already too compromising.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    What are you talking about? We dont go to work or uni in swimsuits do we
    Leaving aside the point that some people do, indeed, go to work in swimsuits (or at least change into them when they are there), there is a bigger issue.

    It is one of integration and refusing to have normal social intercourse with fellow society members by placing women into purdah and refusing them the chance to meet people of the opposite sex outside their religion and family.

    This perpetuates the ghetto mentality that holds them apart and stops them from making a proper contribution to society. It also ensures that the rest of society will be antagonistic to them (and who wouldn't be antagonistic to groups that refuse wholesale to be part of society?)

    They are their own worst enemies.
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    no I dont agree with it but its their belief and respect other peoples beliefs and their right to have them. Ive also argued this passionately when some of my muslim friends have said that people shouldnt be allowed to draw the prophet of islam. People should be allowed to draw whatever they like. Just because I support jews it doesnt make me a jew. Going out half nude isnt a part of everyday life that example is ridiculous
    So what if some white parents said that they don't want their children to swim with black pupils and asked for separate lessons, because they're racist?

    Would you respect their beliefs?
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Precisely, it has been considered an unreasonable request.

    Bear in mind that the school had allowed the girls to wear burkinis, but the parents even refused that. Do you think they were reasonable? I think that the school was already too compromising.
    Okay I wasnt aware of that, I think the parents should be more willing to compromise then. I dont think the school was too compromising, I have more respect for them now
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    (Original post by tammie123)
    no I dont agree with it but its their belief and respect other peoples beliefs and their right to have them. Ive also argued this passionately when some of my muslim friends have said that people shouldnt be allowed to draw the prophet of islam. People should be allowed to draw whatever they like. Just because I support jews it doesnt make me a jew. Going out half nude isnt a part of everyday life that example is ridiculous
    Well unfortunately for you, the state is under no obligation to ensure everyone's beliefs are accommodated for and that logic would lead to absurd situations in which the views of racists, fascists etc would also have to be taken into account. You can believe what you like, the state has no control over what's in your mind, but it does have control over what you can do and in this case the ECHR has ruled that it does not violate their human rights, which I think is obvious to anyone.

    How is that example ridiculous? Swimming pools are extremely common and loads of people will go to a beach at least once in their life so there is absolutely nothing wrong with children of both sexes learning how to swim and be together in such a state of undress. It is plainly ridiculous to suggest otherwise and the ECHR has made the correct decision in not allowing medieval fairytales to violate Switzerland's position on gender segregation. As has been mentioned by other posters, there is a wider issue here, which is that of learning to assimilate and integrate fully.
 
 
 
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