Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Swiss win EU case - Muslim girls must swim with boys Watch

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    Okay I wasnt aware of that,
    So, you leapt into a discussion without even being aware of the basic facts of the case? I hope you will investigate the facts and evidence before leaping to a diagnosis in your future professional life.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Leaving aside the point that some people do, indeed, go to work in swimsuits (or at least change into them when they are there), there is a bigger issue.

    It is one of integration and refusing to have normal social intercourse with fellow society members by placing women into purdah and refusing them the chance to meet people of the opposite sex outside their religion and family.

    This perpetuates the ghetto mentality that holds them apart and stops them from making a proper contribution to society. It also ensures that the rest of society will be antagonistic to them (and who wouldn't be antagonistic to groups that refuse wholesale to be part of society?)

    They are their own worst enemies.
    Im assuming youre also antagonistic towards all ethnic minorities then because they all do that, southall is a mostly indian area, I also went to a mostly korean area recently too. Hackney is a mostly black area. Theres a difference between being able to have a professional relationship with the opposite gender and being really close friends with them. Non muslim indians also dont approve of men and women getting really chummy with the opposite gender in their culture, do you also not approve of that. I bet you dont
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Well unfortunately for you, the state is under no obligation to ensure everyone's beliefs are accommodated for and that logic would lead to absurd situations in which the views of racists, fascists etc would also have to be taken into account. You can believe what you like, the state has no control over what's in your mind, but it does have control over what you can do and in this case the ECHR has ruled that it does not violate their human rights, which I think is obvious to anyone.

    How is that example ridiculous? Swimming pools are extremely common and loads of people will go to a beach at least once in their life so there is absolutely nothing wrong with children of both sexes learning how to swim and be together in such a state of undress. It is plainly ridiculous to suggest otherwise and the ECHR has made the correct decision in not allowing medieval fairytales to violate Switzerland's position on gender segregation. As has been mentioned by other posters, there is a wider issue here, which is that of learning to assimilate and integrate fully.
    Ive been to beaches many times in my life and Ive never been half nude
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    Shutup you ***hole
    Someone's lost their temper

    Calm down - you'll live longer.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    Someone's lost their temper

    Calm down - you'll live longer.
    Yeah Im human incase youve forgotten
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    Im assuming youre also antagonistic towards all ethnic minorities then because they all do that, southall is a mostly indian area, I also went to a mostly korean area recently too. Hackney is a mostly black area. Theres a difference between being able to have a professional relationship with the opposite gender and being really close friends with them. Non muslim indians also dont approve of men and women getting really chummy with the opposite gender in their culture, do you also not approve of that. I bet you dont
    I believe that anyone who lives in a wider society should play a full role in that society, on its terms.

    There should be no question of groups of people, for reasons of race, religion or culture, ostracising themselves from a society by living in ghettos, refusing to adopt the customs of the wider society and importing marriage partners from abroad.

    Britain (and the west generally) has made laws intended to ensure that immigrants suffer no disadvantages from their original backgrounds, but now these people are turning the laws to unintended and counterproductive uses by insisting on staying in their ghettos, bringing up their children as though they still lived abroad and aggressively importing alien cultures to Britain with no intention to integrate.

    It doesn't work and it is not good for the country.

    My next door neighbour shows what it should be like. His father, an Indian immigrant, ran a traditional corner shop for decades and he himself is fully integrated into western society to the extent that his family's skin colour is the only clue they are not of British stock.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    I wish I could rep you more. I couldn't agree more, and not just any religion, as soon as islam is mentioned it doesn't matter what is being argued everyone will be against islam no matter how stupid it sounds
    Their argument is flawed, as I explained in my reply to them. Parents are legally obliged to ensure their children attend class, unless they have good reason for doing otherwise. Superstition is not considered to be good reason, as the courts confirmed.

    Ironically, we are seeing people defending an unsupportable position simply because the complainants are Muslim.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    Yeah Im human incase youve forgotten
    Nope hadnt forgotten - just didn't relalise someone could lose their temper so easlily.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    Shutup you ***hole
    You know what resorting to gratuitous personal insults does to your credibility, don't you? Is it so difficult to discuss this important issue like an adult?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MeYou2Night)
    Nope hadnt forgotten - just didn't relalise someone could lose their temper so easlily.
    So easily! You said something extremely personal and hurtful to me. How dare you insinuate that. Im a very careful health professional thank you very much and I always double check everything and make sure I have all the required info when a life is involved. I take that extremely seriously and I work incredibly hard to help people. What do you know about me? Its so childish having personal digs at someone in a debate, and it really shows me what kind of person you are
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You know what resorting to gratuitous personal insults does to your credibility, don't you? Is it so difficult to discuss this important issue like an adult?
    Im sorry for responding to a personal insult with a personal insult, youre right I shouldnt stoop to that persons level
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    So easily! You said something extremely personal and hurtful to me. How dare you insinuate that. Im a very careful health professional thank you very much and I always double check everything and make sure I have all the required info when a life is involved. I take that extremely seriously and I work incredibly hard to help people. What do you know about me? Its so childish having personal digs at someone in a debate, and it really shows me what kind of person you are
    You seem to have mistaken your patient, my friend. I was the one you insulted after I expressed a hope that your care at work was more careful than your care in debate. Your care in debate has got worse. You should read more carefully: I actually said nothing about your standards at work.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    So easily! You said something extremely personal and hurtful to me. How dare you insinuate that. Im a very careful health professional thank you very much and I always double check everything and make sure I have all the required info when a life is involved. I take that extremely seriously and I work incredibly hard to help people. What do you know about me? Its so childish having personal digs at someone in a debate, and it really shows me what kind of person you are

    Sorry if I insulted you.

    You might well do and I commend that - not sure what it got to losing your temper at someone asking you about making sure you have all the facts, which you didn't.

    You also threw a personal insult at another user. kettle = black
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    it didn't have to come to that, just let the kids sit on the side while the other kids swim.
    So if the parents want their children to skip science classes on religious grounds, is that also ok?

    When girls in my primary school were on their period they'd be made to just sit on the side while everyone was swimming and it didn't cause an inconvenience for anyone
    Like others here, you are comparing superstition with medical necessity. Apples and oranges.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    there isn't a problem, I know loads of muslims who are doctors in training, pharmacist in training, nurses or planning to work for the british military. We go to university, and work to serve society either through businesses and etc. In what way are we not assimilating. Is it because muslims tend to be friends with each other? (I guess this is also what I noticed and I think its wrong but you see this with other groups too, in my uni the whites tend to stick together and dont talk to us coloured people, the indians also stick together and so do orientals). So stop being so ridiculous, I'm getting so fed up of all of this and I'm already having a really bad day
    Muslims are the same as every other group. They are made up of individuals, and as individuals, they behave differently. Mr Moon is wrong to claim that Muslims fail to assimilate, just as you are wrong to claim that they do.
    Some do and some don't. People need to be specific in their terms and references. Gereralisations never help.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    oh so religious freedom and freedom of expression means nothing yh? Or does it only mean something when it suits you? And what if the muslim in question is a native? People like you say that you have the right to draw the muslim prophet because of freedom of expression but this freedom of expression suddenly dissappears when a muslim is involved. Its so pathetic
    There is no law against drawing a picture of Muhammad.
    There are laws against refusing to send your children to school.
    The issue has nothing to do with freedom of expression or even freedom of religion. It has everything to do with education law. That is all.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You seem to have mistaken your patient, my friend. I was the one you insulted after I expressed a hope that your care at work was more careful than your care in debate. Your care in debate has got worse. You should read more carefully: I actually said nothing about your standards at work.
    Ive just read through my replies and Ive realised my mistake, I got confused. I havent slept properly in 3 days straight due to personal problems at home. The fact that you even mentioned it seemed to me like you were trying to insinuate that I wouldnt be good at my job. If I wouldnt be good at my job why would I even be picked by my uni which has quite high standards (I go to kings college). So to be honest I shouldnt have let your comment upset me because I know I do my best and I know Im good at what I do.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    special treatment pfft, muslims aren't even treated like humans in your intolerant society
    Now you're just being silly. This kind of overblown victim mentality is exactly the kind of attitude that exacerbates things.

    I mean "Muslims aren't treated like humans in the UK". Any reasonable argument that you may have had is now useless, because this is what people will remember.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Gladstone1885)
    Syria shares a drowning rate with Switzerland and I'm pretty sure swimming lessons aren't their priority over there
    Kinda hard to drown in a desert.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I don't know why this has become such a big issue of disagreement. I would have expected both the parents and the school to be flexible and be able to reach a compromise.
    The school tried. They provided a seperate changing area and allowed the girls to wear non-standard kit (burkini). The parents rejected this and demanded segregated swimming and when this was not provided, withdrew the children from lessons - which is against the law without a valid reason, and all authorities involved ruled that medieval superstition is not a valid reason for withdrawing children from school.

    The parents are not asking for separate lessons or a separate pool to be provided at the school's expense. They are just asking for their children to be exempt from the lessons.
    Yes they were. The children were withdrawn when the school declined to provide segregated lessons.

    I am quite sure that if the reason for exemption had been anything other than religion, most of the people on this thread wouldn't have had such a problem with it.
    Like disability or medical reasons? Your right, because those are valid reasons. Superstition is not a valid reason. If a parent who believed in astrology wanted to withdraw their child because Mercury is retrograde, they would be treated the same.

    The parents should have just claimed that their daughters had an extreme phobia of swimming.
    If the phobia was genuine, then that is a medical reason and therefore valid.

    I don't see the big deal in being exempt from a non-academic school activity
    If a lesson is mandatory, it is mandatory. People can't be allowed to cherry-pick what lessons they attend.

    If the school was uncompromisingly insistent that the lessons must be compulsory for everyone because of the tiny chance they might one day fall into a lake and drown, the parents could equally have compromised by agreeing to the lessons as long as their daughters were allowed to wear something more substantial than a swimsuit.
    They could have, but they refused to. (The school allowed the girls to wear a burkini during swimming lessons, and provided a seperate changing area.)
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.