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Swiss win EU case - Muslim girls must swim with boys Watch

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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Nobody denied that children should be attending classes - what does that even mean?

    And they don't impose their view on anyone, you don't have to attend their classe, nor do they want to build a separate pool for girls (if so, it should be at their expense).

    Jesus.
    (Original post by gogojakeo)
    From what I read, the parents were fine with their daughters not doing swimming lessons at all.
    "Schools, it said, played an important role in social integration, and exemptions from some lessons are "justified only in very exceptional circumstances" "

    As I understood they kinda have to attend the classes.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I think the basic tenet is that citizens should not reject one another in the course of the everyday business of public life. The basic tenet of Islam (as far as these parents are concerned), that contradicts this, is that the sexes should not mix outside the family. I think our society's norms come before superstitious beliefs: you can hold them but they will not be pandered to if they affect others.

    Practise your religion to your heart's desire behind closed doors, but be a normal part of society in public.
    Nobody rejects anyone mate. If Muslims didn't want their kids to mingle with non-Muslim kids, we'd have a problem. But even if all children in that school were Muslim, they'd still not put boys and girls together. So they're not saying that we don't want Muslim kids with non-Muslim kids. They'd be happy to put non-Muslim girls with Muslim girls. The religion of the child is not the issue here.
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    Europe is facing a migrant crisis, many muslim migrants are failing to integrate into their host cultures. Europe should make every effot to faciliate muslims to become European, and leave islamic practises behind. Mixed swimming lessons are one of many things which should be enforced.
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    Whats all this garbage about muslim's asking for special privileges? Just because what they're asking for is religion related everyone's suddenly arguing so much. Where as if the case was about, say a girl who didnt want to swim because she didnt want to show the scars on her body to anyone, everyone would be on the girls side. If you can respect her reasons why cant you respect a muslim's reason for wanting segregation? Their religion isnt interfering with your life so why y'all hating? Or if the girls didnt want to swim with the boys just because they werent 'comfortable with the other gender' I'm sure no one would have made such a hubbub over it but once religion comes into the picture... *explosion*
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    (Original post by hassassin04)
    "Schools, it said, played an important role in social integration, and exemptions from some lessons are "justified only in very exceptional circumstances" "

    As I understood they kinda have to attend the classes.
    I don't see why it should be compulsory for them to attend swimming lessons. Switzerland is landlocked. They shouldn't be made to sin in their religion.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    The religion of the child is not the issue here.
    It is the only problem. Parents, for reasons of religion, do not want their children to mix with those of the opposite sex in conditions where bits of skin can be seen. The Christian, Buddhist and atheist parents are not taking the same attitude, are they? The problem is entirely religious.
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    (Original post by hassassin04)
    "Schools, it said, played an important role in social integration, and exemptions from some lessons are "justified only in very exceptional circumstances" "

    As I understood they kinda have to attend the classes.
    Can you please be even mildly coherent and answer my question?

    If you force people to participate in an event they think is wrong to participate, it is YOU who's forcing your views on them.

    If they do not participate in that event, they are not forcing their religious beliefs on anyone.
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    (Original post by gogojakeo)
    I don't see why it should be compulsory for them to attend swimming lessons. Switzerland is landlocked. They shouldn't be made to sin in their religion.
    Switzerland is landlocked and full of dangerous lakes and rivers. It is a sensible public policy that all young people learn to swim in any country.
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    (Original post by MildredMalone)
    Europe is facing a migrant crisis, many muslim migrants are failing to integrate into their host cultures. Europe should make every effot to faciliate muslims to become European, and leave islamic practises behind. Mixed swimming lessons are one of many things which should be enforced.
    Just because they move to a Christian country doesn't mean that they should be forced to have Christian practices. Switzerland is a secular country. People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want. If a Christian moves to Israel, they don't give up pork. Why should someone have to change their life to fit Christians when it's not expected that Christians change when they move to non-Christian majority countries? Especially when it's something as big as "I'll go to hell if I don't follow my religion."
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    (Original post by gogojakeo)
    Just because they move to a Christian country doesn't mean that they should be forced to have Christian practices. Switzerland is a secular country. People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want. If a Christian moves to Israel, they don't give up pork. Why should someone have to change their life to fit Christians when it's not expected that Christians change when they move to non-Christian majority countries? Especially when it's something as big as "I'll go to hell if I don't follow my religion."
    If Christians were causing problems in non-Christian countries through refusing to integrate, you might have a point. As it is, muslims are failing to integrate, and it is causing problems.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Can you please be even mildly coherent and answer my question?

    If you force people to participate in an event they think is wrong to participate, it is YOU who's forcing your views on them.

    If they do not participate in that event, they are not forcing their religious beliefs on anyone.

    No, they choose to attend that school and that school is secular and as such individual religious beliefs are subservient to the rules of a secular state. If they don't like it they should go to another school that is not bound by the secular constitution of the nation state.
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    (Original post by onthemoon)
    No, they choose to attend that school and that school is secular and as such individual religious beliefs are subservient to the rules of a secular state. If they don't like it they should go to another school that is not bound by the secular constitution of the nation state.
    That only works if we're talking about private schools. This is a public school and it is funded through taxation that is applied to all regardless of their beliefs. Therefore, it should serve them accordingly.
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    (Original post by gogojakeo)
    I don't see why it should be compulsory for them to attend swimming lessons. Switzerland is landlocked. They shouldn't be made to sin in their religion.
    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    Can you please be even mildly coherent and answer my question?

    If you force people to participate in an event they think is wrong to participate, it is YOU who's forcing your views on them.

    If they do not participate in that event, they are not forcing their religious beliefs on anyone.
    Yes , some things are compulsory just like school in here. Especially as immigrants who arrived they must know it and accept , if they do not accept the rules of the land - they should not come in the first place.

    So they either directly refuse to accept the rules of the country or they require special treatment- separate pools for girls in which case I bet they'd be OK with those classes- which is imposing their beliefs on others by requiring to have such pools for children in the first place which is demanded only by muslims as it seems.
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    (Original post by gogojakeo)
    Just because they move to a Christian country doesn't mean that they should be forced to have Christian practices. Switzerland is a secular country. People should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want. If a Christian moves to Israel, they don't give up pork. Why should someone have to change their life to fit Christians when it's not expected that Christians change when they move to non-Christian majority countries? Especially when it's something as big as "I'll go to hell if I don't follow my religion."
    Have you been to Dubai before? Loads of countries enforce their culture and religion to a strong degree. The UK is very linient due to the fact it has a very liberalised culture. I welcome anyone who wants to start a life here, but if cultures fail to integrate and continue on this cycle for a very long time, it will create a huge division which could have impacts and consequences for the country.

    How can we integrate efficiently if non-muslim boys aren't allowed to talk or play with Muslim girls?
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    Would we discuss this is the girls' parents had requested single sex changing rooms (on basis of religious reasons) if they weren't there?
    No, because we also see the benefit in single sex changing rooms and would be consider it strange to have a shared changing room. So don't see how it should be any different with the swimming classes.
    Let there be girls only swimming classes - people might also want for reasons other than religious ones.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    That only works if we're talking about private schools. This is a public school and it is funded through taxation that is applied to all regardless of their beliefs. Therefore, it should serve them accordingly.
    Which is what it has attempted to do: one cost-effective swimming class for all, in a system that has, no doubt, been accepted as reasonable for decades despite having limited resources and limited time in a busy school day.

    The children learn to swim and simultaneously learn how to interact with their peers in a different situation, even though they may be distracted by the lack of clothing. The Moslem parents would rather their boys go on to be ignorant of what behaviour is expected of them when in proximity to female skin, and to perpetrate harassment whenever they are close to women in the future.
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    (Original post by hassassin04)
    Yes , some things are compulsory just like school in here. Especially as immigrants who arrived they must know it and accept , if they do not accept the rules of the land - they should not come in the first place.

    So they either directly refuse to accept the rules of the country or they require special treatment- separate pools for girls in which case I bet they'd be OK with those classes- which is imposing their beliefs on others by requiring to have such pools for children in the first place which is demanded only by muslims as it seems.
    That's not an argument. If I migrate to Saudi Arabia and become a permanent citizen, it wouldn't be less immoral for my sister to have to wear a particular kind of clothing in public. It wouldn'tbe less immoral if she couldn't get a driving's license just because I was a migrant there - why do people peddle this nonsense?

    I'd still be right to say that the state is repressive and barbarous even if I'm a migrant there and even if I knew beforehand that the state is what it is.

    All states contain unjust laws. What I thought we were discussing here is whether a law is just or not, not whether people should respect it (I agree that we should respect all laws at all times but I also believe in people's right to protest and attempt to change unjust laws even if they're immigrants because guess what, people have rights independently of their status as migrants)

    Regarding the pool thing, I haven't read that they want separate pools for their children. this is what you have assumed. And again, I'm not in favour of that so it is irrelevant (or, if they do want that, it shouldn't be a public expense).

    But again, that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed to say no to their children participating in this particular class.
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    (Original post by RainbowMan)
    That only works if we're talking about private schools. This is a public school and it is funded through taxation that is applied to all regardless of their beliefs. Therefore, it should serve them accordingly.
    No, when we pay tax the money is no longer ours. It is there to run the organs of the state under its constitution and rules. We abide by these as citizens and residents of that state. If you don't like those rules then tough as this is the nature of democracy.

    If they are upset then change schools and pay privately. If they are unhappy their tax contributions aren't allowing them certain individual privileges in the state they freely choose to live in, then vote for a politician who would look to change the rules or move to a different country.
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    I went to school in Dubai and girls and boys swam together. The Muslims didn't complain Over there. One of my friends who felt uncomfortable simply sat out the lessons.
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    (Original post by onthemoon)
    No, when we pay tax the money is no longer ours. It is there to run the organs of the state under its constitution and rules. We abide by these as citizens and residents of that state. If you don't like those rules then tough as this is the nature of democracy.

    If they are upset then change schools and pay privately. If they are unhappy their tax contributions aren't allowing them certain individual privileges in the state they freely choose to live in, then vote for a politician who would look to change the rules or move to a different country.
    I don't recall ever arguing that people should disobey laws. I said the state should've allowed them to practice their religion freely without impinging on anyone's right to do the same thing. That is not disobeying anything.

    In liberal democracies, the power of majorities is constrained by constitutionally protected rights. So no, if I don't like a rule it's not "tough", people have rights.

    I agree with you that they should vote for polticians who're in favour of granting this allowance. Again, I didn't argue that they should just ignore the laws and do whatever they want.
 
 
 
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